Organization probably doesn't want to improve things • Hacker News Board

Re: Organization probably doesn't want to improve things

#271

Post by flagrant_taco » Sun, Oct 08, 2023, 1:46 PM UTC

astrange wrote: post #200

isthispermanent wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

David Graeber, the author of Debt, is a moron?

Yes, that one's bad too. But the main evidence for this is that he's an anarchist. Graeber is not around to defend this position seeing as he's not alive, but anarchists are all very happy to talk about their philosophy, they will answer any question you give them, and their answers instantly disprove it and show they shouldn't be trusted to implement any of it. Like if you ask where insulin comes from they'll just s…

That's a pretty big caricature of anarchists. I'd expect an anarchist to say something to the effect of businesses creating insulin if there's enough market demand for it.

You seem to assume that businesses, markets, and innovation are tied to governments and couldn't exist without the powerful hand of authority making them exist. Governments can help all of these things, but they can also hurt them, and government absolutely didn't invent any of them.

The Chop wasn't any real attempt at anarchy. It was a protest that took a weird turn and a city that let it happen. There was absolutely no plan or expectation that it'd be anything other than a stunt trying to make a point. You don't cut off a handful of blocks in a landlocked and largely residential area and call it a government free zone while being completely dependent on the government-controlled area around you.

Re: Organization probably doesn't want to improve things

#272

Post by anvil-on-my-toe » Sun, Oct 08, 2023, 1:46 PM UTC

neogodless wrote: post #259

anvil-on-my-toe wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$60-100k salary is not enough to support a family and retire; it's probably not enough for a single person to make meaningful progress towards retirement because at that level of pay home ownership is constantly out of reach and inflation outpaces wage growth. It's sacrificing your life so someone else can get rich.

In today's environment, home prices really seem to be getting nuts. As I said, anyone in software is likely making over $100K. A $500K house with 20% down would have a P&I payment of $2,715 / month (at 7.2%, plus taxes/insurance.) That's less than $33K / year. (I bought my first house for $155K making $55K / year, and my second house for $390K making $100K.) If you're making over $100K, and spending under a third of…

$100k for a down payment - how many years of saving does that take and what happens to that $500k price tag during those years of saving? One hardship like a medical issue, a setback in employment, or a child you weren't ready for, then what? And I'm not sure you could find a one bedroom, one bathroom for $500k in a city with tech jobs.

Re: Organization probably doesn't want to improve things

#273

Post by joaonmatos » Sun, Oct 08, 2023, 1:47 PM UTC

zmgsabst wrote: post #118

stinkytaco wrote: post #41

I'd like to see a post like this on HN where someone revisits their organization 10 years later and decides if they were right or not. It's not that all organizations don't have disfunction, but as a younger person I was very fixated on everything I saw that was wrong and ignored either the problems I myself was introducing which were (and probably still are) numerous or the systems and programs that made the organiz…

What happens when you were right? Eg, as an SDE in 2017 you worked on Amazon Device’s econometrics team and were screaming the entire org was in trouble — but the PhD economists and directors ignored you. We’re at 5 years, a gutted department, billions in losses, etc. Now what? Or you warned WarnerMedia executives about their internal corporate misandry just before they fired Johnny Depp for being a male victim — and…

I think you’re right in the aggregate and the abstract.

But it’s also funny that two of the situations you mentioned (Johnny Depp “victim” and Bud Light) are fake stories based on conservative media astroturfing where any judge would be hard pressed to find that there was unreasonable behaviour on the corporate end.

And of course, being a white knight only works if you’re privileged enough to be able to jump ship or fight your social wars and still have something to fall back on. Not everyone here is a US citizen with US resident parents and US college education, earns 6 figures, or has had decades of working experience to accumulate savings and make a CV.

Re: Organization probably doesn't want to improve things

#274

Post by throw9away6 » Sun, Oct 08, 2023, 1:47 PM UTC

astrange wrote: post #104

fallingfrog wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah perverse financial incentives describe 99% of the stupidity we put up with daily. Like, why when you look at the labeling of a bottle of Tylenol do you find a description of the trademarks, a non-discrimination clause, and several paragraphs regarding liability in imaginary scenarios written in impenetrable legalese? But, it’s impossible to find the actual dosage chart? Which one will kill you if you get it wron…

I'm 100% sure my Tylenol bottles have dosage charts on them, not only because it's so easy to fatally overdose on it but also because manufacturing it is extremely regulated and nobody cares what the manufacturers think about anything.

It’s there but not easy to find

Re: Organization probably doesn't want to improve things

#275

Post by flagrant_taco » Sun, Oct 08, 2023, 1:49 PM UTC

pdimitar wrote: post #230

flagrant_taco wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teams can actually function well and have no problems for periods of time. I those cases you would almost certainly break that by firing the manager. I think everyone would agree that yes-people are useless for a team, but if you find yourself surrounded by them you have to ask why. Either you hired poorly, or more likely the way you treat you team and/or company creates a culture of fear and dishonesty.

Who is that "you" who hired poorly? I am a programmer, I did not hire anyone. My comment from much above, to which many people replied, was from the point of view of a working programmer.

I was just assuming you were talking about managers not independent contributors. The "you" would be the person with the authority to fire though, as a working programmer would have absolutely no power to fire anyone saying there are no problems.

Re: Organization probably doesn't want to improve things

#276

Post by _shadi » Sun, Oct 08, 2023, 1:50 PM UTC

stinkytaco wrote: post #41

I'd like to see a post like this on HN where someone revisits their organization 10 years later and decides if they were right or not. It's not that all organizations don't have disfunction, but as a younger person I was very fixated on everything I saw that was wrong and ignored either the problems I myself was introducing which were (and probably still are) numerous or the systems and programs that made the organiz…

> It's not that all organizations don't have disfunction, but as a younger person I was very fixated on everything I saw that was wrong and ignored either the problems I myself was introducing which were (and probably still are) numerous or the systems and programs that made the organization successful.

speaking from my own experience, when I look at my earlier career years I didn't appreciate how resilient organizations can be to disfunction, yes 100 things are broken, but for the most part everything will still be fine.

Re: Organization probably doesn't want to improve things

#277

Post by lapcat » Sun, Oct 08, 2023, 1:51 PM UTC

Draiken wrote: post #258

lapcat wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are they retiring with the same standard of living they had before? This is a strong indicator that choice is a factor, despite your protests to the contrary. But what exactly do you mean by "standard of living"? For example, when you're employed, you have to live where the jobs are, no matter how expensive, unless you can get remote work. Whereas when you're retired you can live anywhere, perhaps a place that is b…

You're telling me most retired Americans have more than hundreds of thousands of dollars in savings? I'm not gonna dive into stats for that since I'm not an American, but I would be thoroughly surprised.

> You're telling me most retired Americans have more than hundreds of thousands of dollars in savings?

How much do you think you need? I think the recommendation is something like 10x your current annual income.

> I'm not gonna dive into stats for that since I'm not an American

How is your nationality relevant to reading stats? If you don't want to, then just say that.

Re: Organization probably doesn't want to improve things

#278

Post by neogodless » Sun, Oct 08, 2023, 1:53 PM UTC

anvil-on-my-toe wrote: post #272

neogodless wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In today's environment, home prices really seem to be getting nuts. As I said, anyone in software is likely making over $100K. A $500K house with 20% down would have a P&I payment of $2,715 / month (at 7.2%, plus taxes/insurance.) That's less than $33K / year. (I bought my first house for $155K making $55K / year, and my second house for $390K making $100K.) If you're making over $100K, and spending under a third of…

$100k for a down payment - how many years of saving does that take and what happens to that $500k price tag during those years of saving? One hardship like a medical issue, a setback in employment, or a child you weren't ready for, then what? And I'm not sure you could find a one bedroom, one bathroom for $500k in a city with tech jobs.

In places where houses are $500K, rent is probably $2000 / month. (More like $1200 - 5000 / month, but depending on the size, location, amenities, luxuriousness of fixtures, etc.) If you make barely $100K, and are spending $24K on rent, let's say you spend half of the rest on living. That leaves you with $38K savings per year. So it takes you 32 months to save up $100K for a down payment.

The secret is don't spend all of the money you make. Well it's not a secret, but it's also not "normal." It's culturally normal to spend all of your money, and then wonder why you can't build up savings. But if you're a software engineer with an income of 6 figures, you really should be able to figure out how to live a good life without spending every last dollar.

Re: Organization probably doesn't want to improve things

#279

Post by lapcat » Sun, Oct 08, 2023, 1:53 PM UTC

harimau777 wrote: post #261

lapcat wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are they retiring with the same standard of living they had before? This is a strong indicator that choice is a factor, despite your protests to the contrary. But what exactly do you mean by "standard of living"? For example, when you're employed, you have to live where the jobs are, no matter how expensive, unless you can get remote work. Whereas when you're retired you can live anywhere, perhaps a place that is b…

> For example, when you're employed, you have to live where the jobs are.... Whereas when you're retired you can live... [in] a place that is both less expensive and warmer. I think that it may be just the opposite. From what I've observed, access to good public transportation is a major contributor to quality of life in old age. In the US, that requires someone to live in a much higher cost of living location.

> From what I've observed

What have you observed, and are your observations anything but anecdotal?

Re: Organization probably doesn't want to improve things

#280

Post by zorrotorro » Sun, Oct 08, 2023, 2:03 PM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #192

Blog posts like these are a staple on HN and I’m always mildly offended by them. It seems to me that there’s a class of programmer that will take an overpaid job at a terrible BigCo, spend their evenings writing ranty blog posts about how terrible it all is, culminating in the inevitable “I quit” article, only subsequently to accept a job at a different terrible BigCo. At no point does this article, or most articles…

Bless you.

Which is even more surprising on 'hacker' news. Maybe the average (US-centric) 'hacker' nowadays is just a corporate worker dreaming.

I recently joined a megacorp after decades of small companies and I'm having quite enough fun on the project side and everything. Corporate bureaucracy is nothing after you dealt with actual international bureaucracy. Only downside is that pay is /too low/.