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Two-parent households should be a policy goal

theatlantic.com

271–280 of 291 posts

Re: Two-parent households should be a policy goal

#271

> To give disadvantaged children better futures, policy makers should promote widespread employment and economic security among a wider segment of the population—particularly non-college-educated men. And therein lies the problem. We've seen for years how every call for minimum wage increases or labor rights is met with "You're only worth what the market will bear. If you want more money and better treatment, you'd b…

If you want more money and better treatment, you'd better make yourself worth more to the market

there is another approach besides just a higher minimum wage.

provide better education to everyone so that they can achieve higher qufications and get better jobs. that will solve the problem of minimum wage jobs because noone wants those anymore. (but, just to be clear, i am not against raising the minimum wage, just that by itself it's not really going to solve the problem)

Re: Two-parent households should be a policy goal

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard disagree. Saying "two parents" is faster and easier than saying "a mom and a dad". Listeners can fill in the gaps with their own biases; the speaker doesn't need to. Anyway, I'm not the one failing to communicate usefully here. Did you actually read the original comment? It has no meaningful content. It is just a more verbose way of saying less than the title of the article -- unless you read it literally, in wh…

Every child on the planet is guaranteed to have a male parent and a female parent. I'm not aware of any ways to create a child without that. Call them a "sperm maker" and an "egg haver" if it makes you feel better but that's reality. Encouraging both of those people to take on the role of mother and father and parent together isn't some crazy, outlandish idea.

the best outcome is always for a child to be with both biological parents. any other constellation may still provide a wonderful environment, but it always implies the absence of at least one biological parent, and this will affect the child.

Re: Two-parent households should be a policy goal

#273
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm talking specifically about the US. I don't know how divorces are treated in other countries. In the US, many states have family court systems with statutory and/or systemic biases against fathers. Mothers are typically given majority custody of the children and deference when it comes to making decisions about the children. Single mothers often qualify for government assistance that they wouldn't qualify for as a…

Some of that is false, but not all of it. And some of it is misleading. For example, women usually get more custody, but that’s also because men often don’t seek custody. Men who seek custody are awarded it at similar rates as women, IIRC. It’s also not true that men are “lucky” to get 50% of the assets. That’s the default position in community property states. And it still doesn’t explain how women are incentivized…

There are a handful of states now where the custody guidelines are 50/50, but most states don't have this yet. And you are right that there are more divorces these days with uncontested equal custody. So the situation is better than it was 30-40 years ago, where fathers typically got every other weekend, but it's still very biased. There are literally hundreds of groups devoted to helping fathers gain equal custody. "Men's rights" is virtually synonymous with winning custody battles.

Yes, 50% communal property is the default position. It is frequently modified to account for things like lower income (or the greater expense of having the children more). There's a reason why the story of the wife keeping the house and the man moving into a crummy apartment are practically cliche at this point.

> And it still doesn’t explain how women are incentivized to divorce, given that despite some of the things above, women still fare worse in divorce than men do.

Women file 70% of divorces. For college-educated women, it's nearly 90%. There's clearly an incentive for women. Men typically earn more income than women. Men have larger savings and retirement accounts. Men are more likely to have pensions. Men are more likely to own businesses and other assets. Divorce gives women a claim to all these things, even into the future, in ways that they would never have had in marriage.

Alimony and child support are both incentives for women (who typically earn less income and are more likely to not work at all). Even in 50/50 custody, the higher earning parent will pay child support.

You are right that fathers may still have nominally more income even after you account for alimony and child support transfers. But that doesn't mean it's still not an incentive. From a woman's perspective, she's earning the exact same income that she would be earning anyway, plus alimony and child support. It's still an incentive for her even if the man is earning nominally more. Just because Elon Musk and Tiger Woods are still wealthy after divorce, and likely still wealthier than their former spouses, the women definitely benefitted from those divorces and the men didn't.

Re: Two-parent households should be a policy goal

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The distraction is dredging up edge-cases to weigh down progress. Should every vehicle made be wheelchair accessible because some people have wheelchairs? Same logic here.

If it’s the broad average case, it doesn’t need government support. Most system design, including the law, is about managing edge cases. The “progress” is in identifying the useful factors in nurturing people and providing societal tools to support those factors. Encouraging one model above all others got us into the pickle we’re in today.

If it’s the broad average case, it doesn’t need government support

disagree. having children as a goal in itself needs to be incentivized, financially and otherwise. germany is doing that by giving parents extra money unconditionally, among other things.

Re: Two-parent households should be a policy goal

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You want people to go to marriage school?! Honestly what planet are you living on.

It's the science fiction world called, "The Planet of People Who Look Before They Leap." There are awesome marriage schools, called couples counseling, and a lot of people do just that before getting married to help expose some of the gotchas that you don't realize before getting married (lots more farts basically). Should it be "policy?" Hell no, but it would probably help new families a lot for people to do it.

what should be policy is that the educational parts of such counseling should be part of the general school curriculum. children need to learn to care for each other, to listen to each other and respect and love each other. there is a lot you can teach about friendships and relationships in school that doesn't need to be done in the intimate situation of couples counseling.

Re: Two-parent households should be a policy goal

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, let's prioritize helping folks have happy/healthy relationships?

>"prioritize". How?

education for one. children need to learn to care for each other, to listen to each other and respect and love each other for example. this can and should be done in school. (besides ideally the parents as good role models)

what young people see as love is often just desire. the desire to be loved. they think if they love someone the other will automatically love them back. they don't understand that loving someone requires wishing the best for that person, unconditionally.

i love you because you are a human being and i want that all your wishes and goals come true.

but for a healthy and happy relationship this is not enough. we need to align our wishes and goals and work together to achieve them.

providing an environment where young people can learn that, is our job as society.

Re: Two-parent households should be a policy goal

#277
post #270
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, it is neutral on divorce, because the support is unconditional. Any government support subsidizes divorce. You are ignoring the fact that in the default state, without UBI (or government assistance), divorce would be naturally disincentivized because of the added financial burden on the caretaker. It substitutes the government as the provider instead of the father. It's precisely what the entire article is abou…

The fact that there are valid cases for divorce doesn't negate that fact that even in those cases there should be massive disincentives against it and that the overwhelming majority of divorces today likely should not be allowed because there is no valid reason for them. There's a lack of awareness about how destructive broken households and families are to children and society. uhm, what? either there is a valid cas…

> if there is a valid case for divorce then absolutely nothing should stand in the way.

If children were not involved, I would agree with you. But because children are negatively affected by divorce, there should be disincentives for divorce. Even valid reasons for divorce have alternatives. That may include substance abuse treatment. Job programs. Marital counseling. Parenting classes. There should be pressure for parents to work through difficult marriages instead of divorce when children are involved.

> preventing divorce on its own does not help fix broken households.

I agree, but incentivizing divorce doesn't improve things either. "Broken households" are statistically still better environments for children than single parent households. I also want to point out that between 1/3 and 1/2 of marriages end in divorce, and most of them are not "broken households".

> but this is not done by disincentivizing divorce

Marriage is hard. If you're presenting mothers with the choice of divorce with favorable custody, alimony, and child support rulings, or trying to work through a bad or difficult marriage for the children's sake, it is far easier to choose the divorce, and they do. Most divorces result in worse outcomes for the children. Period. That's why they should disincentivized, and certainly shouldn't be incentivized.

> "Money arguments are the second leading cause of divorce, behind infidelity"

Infidelity may be the leading cause, but it still makes up a minority of divorces today, and in many of those cases, it's the woman who is unfaithful and files for divorce anyway (again, incentives). If you look up the leading reasons for divorce aside from infidelity, they're nearly all various forms of not getting along well. Abuse makes up a very small portion of divorces.

> the infidelity issue is addressed by better education

If you really believe this, I have a bridge to sell you. People aren't cheating because they don't know it's wrong. Plenty of highly educated people cheat.

> and the money issue is addressed by financial support for parents.

Throwing money at parents isn't going to prevent divorce (and we want to prevent divorce), unless you're saying only married couples get the money.

> In Germany...

Divorce rates in Germany are similar to the US, so whatever you're doing, it's not working there either.

> disincentivizing divorce by not financially supporting the single parent is a very bad idea because it forces them to remain in an abusive relationship.

Again, a very, very, very small fraction of divorces are the result of abuse. It's a red herring that ignores the real problem -- the overwhelming majority of divorces occurring today result in worse outcomes for children. The state has a duty to protect children from the negative consequences of divorce, ergo, the state should disincentivize divorce.

Re: Two-parent households should be a policy goal

#278
post #277
post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that there are valid cases for divorce doesn't negate that fact that even in those cases there should be massive disincentives against it and that the overwhelming majority of divorces today likely should not be allowed because there is no valid reason for them. There's a lack of awareness about how destructive broken households and families are to children and society. uhm, what? either there is a valid cas…

> if there is a valid case for divorce then absolutely nothing should stand in the way. If children were not involved, I would agree with you. But because children are negatively affected by divorce, there should be disincentives for divorce. Even valid reasons for divorce have alternatives. That may include substance abuse treatment. Job programs. Marital counseling. Parenting classes. There should be pressure for p…

you make many good points that i mostly agree with. let me just clarify some things:

Infidelity may be the leading cause, but it still makes up a minority of divorces today

i didn't see the statistics. i assumed it meant there are more divorces caused by it than by financial problems, and that the remaining causes are other problems. (eg: 40% infidelity, 30% money, 20% other, 10% abuse. something like that)

People aren't cheating because they don't know it's wrong

that's not where i was going with education. the problem as i see it is, that people are cheating because they don't feel valued enough by their partner or they don't value their partner enough, and that i believe can absolutely be addressed with education. i don't mean teaching them that it is wrong, but teaching them how to value their partner more so they or their partner don't even develop the desire to cheat in the first place.

Throwing money at parents isn't going to prevent divorce

but it should remove money as a reason for divorce.

Divorce rates in Germany are similar to the US, so whatever you're doing, it's not working there either.

well, i think that is to simple as a comparison. again, not having seen the statistics, i expect that in germany not many divorces are cause by financial difficulties, and most are cause by people not having learned to get along. which too, can be addressed by education. i would suspect that in germany, having a much less conservative culture, divorce rates would be even higher if financial problems were added to the mix. so for all i know, the money part should be working. germany has other problems instead.

the state should disincentivize divorce

yes, but not through simply taking away money but by addressing the actual root causes. it should be more difficult to divorce, but once divorce actually happens the parent taking the children should be financially supported. but i just thought of another approach: more equally shared custody. i believe this is the norm in germany. that way, there is no financial benefit because both parents have equal costs.

Re: Two-parent households should be a policy goal

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gobbledygook.

Which part of it? Get evidence around how to support and encourage these structures. Figure out how to provide access to those mechanisms. Put it into policy. With all due respect, none of that is gobbledygook and it's just rephrased.

More gobbledegook.

Saying "lets get evidence and make things better" isn't a solution.

It's gobbledegook.

Re: Two-parent households should be a policy goal

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which part of it? Get evidence around how to support and encourage these structures. Figure out how to provide access to those mechanisms. Put it into policy. With all due respect, none of that is gobbledygook and it's just rephrased.

More gobbledegook. Saying "lets get evidence and make things better" isn't a solution. It's gobbledegook.

If you put money into reseach into a certain subject, you will learn things about that subject. What you learn can and should inform policy. This is not nonsense. This one of the key mechanisms behind good policy.

If you are pointing out that this story requires more detail to be useful for specific applications, I don't disagree.

But this is in response to a comment which appears to be so narrow as to think the only option is to pay people to remain married, so given the context, my response is coherent, reasonable, and makes perfect sense.

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