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The boiling frog of digital freedom

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Re: The boiling frog of digital freedom

#271

Post by attah_ »

gavinhoward wrote: post #261
attah_ wrote: post #19

There is one interesting force acting against that though (or it would probably already have happened). It is the simple fact that most people that are competent enough to actually implement these things also understand the problems with doing so. For the most part anyway. If we could just agree to not do that... well, what are "they" going to do? And of course: we owe it to the web to use Firefox. The Chrome clones…

> It is the simple fact that most people that are competent enough to actually implement these things also understand the problems with doing so. For the most part anyway. If we could just agree to not do that... well, what are "they" going to do? Which is why we should shame every one of us that does do it.

Yes. A thousand times yes.

Re: The boiling frog of digital freedom

#272

Post by 0dayz »

brandonmenc wrote: post #165
0dayz wrote: post #113

There are I think certain issues with this timeline, for starters I've yet to hear a counter proposal to drm to protect the artists work (the real issue is not even usually piracy but instead parasitic piracy and forgery, hence why copyright exist originally). Instead you'll hear anecdotes or idealistic arguments for why an artist have to gamble with getting money for their work. Similarly there are most likely valid…

> I've yet to hear a counter proposal to drm to protect the artists work > Instead you'll hear anecdotes or idealistic arguments for why an artist have to gamble with getting money for their work. This is the current state for nearly every single artist even with DRM, because things like DRM seem to almost exclusively benefit a handful of people at the rest of the world’s expense.

Yes, but those are factors that does not involve piracy/forgery.

My point is that no drm doesn't give any advantage to the artist from a monetary pov.

Drm at least makes it less likely an artist will lose out on potential sales.

Hence why I make the point that if we want a drm free world, we should focus on coming up with better alternatives to what we have.

Re: The boiling frog of digital freedom

#273

Post by bonzini »

goku12 wrote: post #241
baq wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You misunderstood the intent. That’s exactly how to get a small dumb TV. A large dumb TV is called a digital signage display. Those even come with remotes!

The question really is, is it affordable? And how long before even that option disappears?

It won't disappear because it's a different market. A digital signage display is a large computer monitor. It has a remote, and typically also an RS232 interface to communicate what is pressed on the remote (as an alternative to HDMI CEC).

Re: The boiling frog of digital freedom

#274

Post by andai »

api wrote: post #234
MarketingJason wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if gaming consoles had a big hand in this? Going back to Atari pong in the early/mid 70's and I don't recall if any of the major players (Magnavox, Atari, Coleco, Sears) included anything close to schematics.

It was mostly the mobile revolution. Consoles were always considered something separate from computers. It was phones that normalized not only locked down OSes but surveillance as a normal thing. I remember in the late 2000s hating everything about the mobile revolution and predicting where it would go. I was mostly right but wow did people ever think I was nuts. Tech groupthink back then was the literal phrase “mobi…

Agree with everything you said, but what bugs me most is that I like computers, and phones are computers but they're designed for people who don't like computers, so they pretend not to be computers. Worse, those same ideas have infected the desktop too.

Re: The boiling frog of digital freedom

#275

Post by 2devnull »

Roark66 wrote: post #249
bboygravity wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all about milking and rent-seeking: greed. Every device/vehicle/system now needs to be connected to the internet and needs you to download an app. Is that for the consumer? No. That's for the manufacturer. For milking be reselling your data and/or spying on you and/or charging extra because they can and/or the capability to turn any device into literal trash by not providing updates or bug fixes to a half-baked…

>Blame your government. There could and should be laws against that or at the very least incentives to prevent it. In a democracy the government is a proxy for the people. I blame the people. If the majority was conscious of their rights (or at least what these rights should be) the governments would have no choice and they'd bring laws that protect these rights. Yes, no democracy is perfect, there are lobbyists, cor…

“I blame the people.”

Psychology is a science that studies human behavior, and like all sciences it works mostly. As a result, human minds can be easily hacked by those with the motivation to do so. Psychological science can be employed, things like A/B testing are very effective with enough data, which our digital systems easily provide. Ads are the wholesome version of that, because they are overt. We know the ads are trying to change the way we think and act. Corporate news is an example of the less wholesome side of using psychological science against humans. The humans aren’t to blame. Humans are animals and easy to hack, and our economy is largely, mostly I’d say, based on people hacking/behavioral engineering.

Re: The boiling frog of digital freedom

#276

Post by bombolo »

attah_ wrote: post #34
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, chrome and google in general are the first in line to cause problems. There are many browsers, many apps, many everything... you can switch whenever... but the DRM and attestation pushes with browsers (and mobile devices) means, that sure, you can use a different browser, but your bank, your streaming service, your newssite might not work unless you're using chrome with drm and hardware attestation. This is alr…

Then switch from these services while they are still only a few. Revenue is a language they understand. I never understood why anyone would even want a banking app though; there is nothing int can do that a website can't. The browser war can at least still be won or settled; mainstream apps are a lost cause outside the legal arena. Edit: and by switching i don't mean going to some tinfoil grayweb nonsense. Go to thei…

My bank's webserver recently decided to drop connections when a firefox user agent is received.

No message, no nothing, just close the socket.

Re: The boiling frog of digital freedom

#277

Post by [deleted] »

andai wrote: post #274
api wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was mostly the mobile revolution. Consoles were always considered something separate from computers. It was phones that normalized not only locked down OSes but surveillance as a normal thing. I remember in the late 2000s hating everything about the mobile revolution and predicting where it would go. I was mostly right but wow did people ever think I was nuts. Tech groupthink back then was the literal phrase “mobi…

Agree with everything you said, but what bugs me most is that I like computers, and phones are computers but they're designed for people who don't like computers, so they pretend not to be computers. Worse, those same ideas have infected the desktop too.

[deleted]

Re: The boiling frog of digital freedom

#278

Post by jsnell »

dijit wrote: post #11
sunbum wrote: post #5

> 2025: Google removes the ability to install Android apps from outside the Play store, citing security concerns. Yeah no, would be a direct violation of DMA at that point[1] [1] - https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/index_en

I mean, all you need to do is make it so that it violates some kind of “integrity” protection on the device, after which banking apps, android wallet etc stop functioning. Its enough incentive to kill third party app stores for the vast majority of people. Staying within the letter of the law is pretty easy.

Have you read the text of the DMA? It addresses this exact point in section 50, and is nowhere near as easy to wiggle around as you suggest.

Re: The boiling frog of digital freedom

#279

Post by attah_ »

EGreg wrote: post #148
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, chrome and google in general are the first in line to cause problems. There are many browsers, many apps, many everything... you can switch whenever... but the DRM and attestation pushes with browsers (and mobile devices) means, that sure, you can use a different browser, but your bank, your streaming service, your newssite might not work unless you're using chrome with drm and hardware attestation. This is alr…

If the ecosystem is based on open source software, the community will fork it like it always does when someone tries to control it. You’ll end up with a fork of Chromium/Blink that doesn’t have WEI. And it will be used to surf web sites. While the official browser from Google would be used to access sites that require WEI attestations. Just like the Bank of America app would. Corporate power in pushing Chrome for eve…

The problem is Blink might just be too big for what little community exists to feasibly maintain it. If it is just a Chrome that doesn't work an select asinine sites, it isn't in a great position to catch on. And perhaps most important; the point is to have something viable before that even needs to happen.

Re: The boiling frog of digital freedom

#280

Post by attah_ »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #248
EGreg wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the ecosystem is based on open source software, the community will fork it like it always does when someone tries to control it. You’ll end up with a fork of Chromium/Blink that doesn’t have WEI. And it will be used to surf web sites. While the official browser from Google would be used to access sites that require WEI attestations. Just like the Bank of America app would. Corporate power in pushing Chrome for eve…

Sure, but if netflix, your bank, your power and water service, and a chat app, where 80% of your contacts are only support chrome, what will you do? Many banks already require hardware attestation from google for mobile apps and mandatory 2FA via that app is a pain on a rooted phone and workarounds are painful. I mean sure, you can just not-use those services and not chat with everyone else, but that's a bad solution…

And just doing nothing is somehow a better solution?
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