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For many home-schoolers, parents are no longer doing the teaching

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Re: For many home-schoolers, parents are no longer doing the teaching

#271

Post by dj_mc_merlin »

tiffanyg wrote: post #263
dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can hire a private tutor, or teach them maths yourself. Only some kids truly have an aptitude for mathematics anyway.

Only some kids truly have an aptitude for mathematics anyway. That's an absurdly strong and inaccurate statement that feeds into psychological walls that then get erected in the minds of the young and perpetuate ad infinitum. The psychological research here is very clear: stressing work, over some sort of ethereal innate 'talent', in ANY area makes a massive difference in skill attainment. I don't have time this mome…

Anyone can learn mathematics. Not everybody wants to or would find it useful. I feel as if you're putting a large amount of words into my mouth which I never intended -- all I meant to say was that not learning mathematics to a high level is not that bad. Lots of people have perfectly meaningful lives knowing basically no mathematics beyond middle school level, having forgotten even high school maths.

Re: For many home-schoolers, parents are no longer doing the teaching

#272

Post by [deleted] »

silverpepsi wrote: post #244
glitchc wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This means the kids gather together in one location because many kids can learn from the person doing the teaching. >Often as well it makes sense for the parents all to contribute a little money so that instead of the parents having to teach things that they are not expert in, the can pay as a group for someone with subject expertise to assist. >It can be problematic though gathering so many kids into one house for…

Something I heard a few years back put my life experience as a kid in perspective. At least for me, in the most important way possible, it doesn't sound like regular school at all. The main deep life impacting characteristic of standard public schools is coerced unwelcome company. You're forced by law to be around the same bullies for 5, 10, even 12 years. The natural order with organic friendships (and indeed probab…

[deleted]

Re: For many home-schoolers, parents are no longer doing the teaching

#273

Post by WicWacWok »

david-gpu wrote: post #260
dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm unsure if you're saying that coerced unwelcome company is a good or a bad thing. While kids can be mean, it's just a reflection of humans in general and this kind of behaviour doesn't go away when you block it out. People get more mature but there's a lot of similarity between how people act in high school and in the work place, it's just a lot more skillfully and subtly done. Exposing kids to this reality doesn'…

> Exposing kids to this reality doesn't seem bad to me. I hope your children don't get "exposed to this reality" in school, as you put it. The sorts of harrassment that school bullies inflict on their victims is, to put it simply, not tolerated anywhere else. Why should it be tolerated when it happens in school, where the victims have no choice but to attend every day?

> The sorts of harrassment that school bullies inflict on their victims is, to put it simply, not tolerated anywhere else.

Workplace bullying is fairly common too, it just follows the corporate hierarchy.

Re: For many home-schoolers, parents are no longer doing the teaching

#274

Post by nitwit005 »

opportune wrote: post #252
nitwit005 wrote: post #245

Everyone shows up to be taught by a common teacher, with government and non profit funding? That's just school.

Except they have much more flexibility, up to individualization, in terms of curriculum content and pacing, teachers from potentially more varied backgrounds/main jobs besides teaching, and the ability to eject unruly and problematic kids that impact other kids’ abilities to focus and learn?

You're describing a private school.

Re: For many home-schoolers, parents are no longer doing the teaching

#275

Post by vasco »

anon84873628 wrote: post #236
mvnuweucxqokii wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a strawman. The steelman version is something like the following chain of reasoning: (a) gender identity is something that everyone has that is distinct from sex, (b) with enough introspection, everyone can discover their true gender identity, (c) if you don't have a strongly felt gender identity, you need to introspect, (d) if introspection does not yield certainty then this suggests genderfluidity, or even w…

That's not the steel man, that's a straw man where you just flipped the politics of the scenario. Letting kids feel safe to introspect and question their gender expression is a good thing. The implication that kids will be _systematically_ forced to delay puberty or undergo a transition they don't want is absurd and not a valid "chain of reasoning". Yes, I'm sure it has happened and could continue in rare instances b…

> make serious medical decisions

Did you sneak that in by mistake? Kids shouldn't be making any serious medical decisions for obvious reasons. This is law in many countries.

Re: For many home-schoolers, parents are no longer doing the teaching

#276

Post by soligern »

silverpepsi wrote: post #244
glitchc wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This means the kids gather together in one location because many kids can learn from the person doing the teaching. >Often as well it makes sense for the parents all to contribute a little money so that instead of the parents having to teach things that they are not expert in, the can pay as a group for someone with subject expertise to assist. >It can be problematic though gathering so many kids into one house for…

Something I heard a few years back put my life experience as a kid in perspective. At least for me, in the most important way possible, it doesn't sound like regular school at all. The main deep life impacting characteristic of standard public schools is coerced unwelcome company. You're forced by law to be around the same bullies for 5, 10, even 12 years. The natural order with organic friendships (and indeed probab…

That doesn’t sound right. For all of human history bullies who were bigger and stronger made the rules. The weak were ostracized. If anything, what you’re doing in homeschooling is reverting away from the norm and creating a sheltered environment. This is a double edged sword, you can turn your kids into fragile beings incapable of dealing with a harsh world but at the same time they will probably have productive, predictable and carefree childhoods.

The best case scenario is to be rich enough so you can create a bubble for your kids that lasts from birth all the way to their graves. It’s very possible, all the wealthiest people do it.

Re: For many home-schoolers, parents are no longer doing the teaching

#277

Post by JackMorgan »

I'm pretty uniquely situated to discuss this:

- I was homeschooled from K-8 then went to regular school from 8-12

- I am a state certified middle school teacher in TX

- I taught 5th and 6th grade public school in TX and AK

- I've volunteered at a private democratic free school

- I've taught at the university level as a tutor and then as a assistant professor

American public schools use one of the worst pedagogical systems. If you do any research into the field, you are quickly confronted with uncomfortable realities like:

- Bloom's Two Sigma problem: "the educational phenomenon that the average student tutored one-to-one using mastery learning techniques performed two standard deviations better than students educated in a classroom environment." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloom%27s_2_sigma_problem

- democratic free school students earn more than their peers and graduate from college at a higher rate

- some of the most respected educators in America have walked away from the public school system calling it a "12-year jail sentence in which bad habits are the only curriculum truly learned" https://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html

It is true that some homeschoolers graduate with below average social skills - but the same is true for half of all public school students. Some homeschoolers test behind the public school average - just like half of public school students. On the other hand, luminaries of our field point out that one on one tutoring (which often happens with home schoolers) more often produces students significantly ahead of public school classrooms.

There just is no way to have a classroom as effective as one on one tutoring. A parent who cares and does their best to organize all the amazing and free resources can easily match the quality of classroom instruction. And it doesn't have to take 6+ hours a day. Plenty of homeschoolers test in the top 10% of their state with just an hour or two a day of effort. Even one hour a day per child can outpace a public school classroom.

Obviously homeschooling is not for every family. If you've got two working parents who commute, it might not work out without some kind of co-op or micro-school.

But if you are in the fence, homeschooling can be very effective. There's plenty of sports, meetups, co-ops, social events, and free online resources. It's possible to produce a fantastic education for your children without sending them to public school.

Public school should be thought of as the lowest common denominator to exceed, not the pinnacle to reach for. Don't do what my mom tried for a few months and set up desks and try to lecture. You aren't trying to remake a classroom with lectures and homework, you're providing a rich environment filled with intrinsic motivation. You're not trying to force your children to conform to the rigid and demotivational rules of public school, you're freeing them to follow their own interests. You aren't trying to make an educational cattle chute with easily graded standardized tests, you're letting them grow and never lose that sense of wonder, creativity, and critical thinking.

Additional resources on how children often need very little instruction at all:

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH-W5bk7sE0

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFAhWrLfm-0

- https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-learn/201003...

Re: For many home-schoolers, parents are no longer doing the teaching

#278

Post by dj_mc_merlin »

david-gpu wrote: post #260
dj_mc_merlin wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm unsure if you're saying that coerced unwelcome company is a good or a bad thing. While kids can be mean, it's just a reflection of humans in general and this kind of behaviour doesn't go away when you block it out. People get more mature but there's a lot of similarity between how people act in high school and in the work place, it's just a lot more skillfully and subtly done. Exposing kids to this reality doesn'…

> Exposing kids to this reality doesn't seem bad to me. I hope your children don't get "exposed to this reality" in school, as you put it. The sorts of harrassment that school bullies inflict on their victims is, to put it simply, not tolerated anywhere else. Why should it be tolerated when it happens in school, where the victims have no choice but to attend every day?

Is it good that children get bullied or ostracized? Obviously not. It is far preferable however to the alternative of never having experienced that humans can act like this. We're sometimes assholes to each other for poor animalistic reasons, and that's probably not going away in my lifetime. One should be prepared for other people to act like this.

> Why should it be tolerated when it happens in school, where the victims have no choice but to attend every day?

Since it's where they go to learn that this behaviour exists but is bad. You need to have lighter sanctions in order to teach people about behaviour without ruining their lives in the process.

Re: For many home-schoolers, parents are no longer doing the teaching

#279

Post by standardUser »

twodave wrote: post #242

If my wife and I were to put our 4 special needs kids into public school it would result in them having a bunch of unbelievably negative experiences: - they would NOT receive a quality education or be taught to be self-learners. - they would be passed along, even with failing grades, putting them further behind their peers, highlighted their differences and denying them their dignity. - they would all end up in socia…

A good friend has two children, one with fairly severe autism and one with extra-strong interpersonal skills. They both go to the same school, but the kid with autism gets special care, including specialized teachers working with him. This is certainly not to say you are wrong! Rather, it's to point out the vast differences between one public school and another.

I have to remind myself sometimes that, even though my public school experience was pretty solid, I had a lot of things working in my favor, like living in a solidly middle-class liberal suburb, having access to lots of honors and AP classes and having several brilliant (and over-qualified) teachers in some departments. Most Americans do not get anything close to such a sweet deal out of their public schools.

Re: For many home-schoolers, parents are no longer doing the teaching

#280

Post by a-user-you-like »

soligern wrote: post #276
silverpepsi wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something I heard a few years back put my life experience as a kid in perspective. At least for me, in the most important way possible, it doesn't sound like regular school at all. The main deep life impacting characteristic of standard public schools is coerced unwelcome company. You're forced by law to be around the same bullies for 5, 10, even 12 years. The natural order with organic friendships (and indeed probab…

That doesn’t sound right. For all of human history bullies who were bigger and stronger made the rules. The weak were ostracized. If anything, what you’re doing in homeschooling is reverting away from the norm and creating a sheltered environment. This is a double edged sword, you can turn your kids into fragile beings incapable of dealing with a harsh world but at the same time they will probably have productive, pr…

If you weren’t bullied growing up then maybe we can find some for you now, as you seem to be advocating this for kids.
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