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TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

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271–280 of 526 posts

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#271
post #3

Wonder if the Taiwanese govt at some point will step in and block these onshoring measures as a matter of national security. If countries are less reliant on manufacturing within Taiwan, its one less reason to stand up to Beijing's one China principle.

My impression is that TSMC is a Taiwanese company, why this would not be onshoring, but offshoring.

The more appropriate term is probably foreign direct investment (FDI) in Germany from TSMC.

I find it funny that western people have issue with the idea that Asian companies can indeed also invest in western countries. It is akin to some discussion about Lega here on HN where some people talked about it as "onshoring" when they made a US factory – Lego is a Danish comapny.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that video from Asianometry contains interesting historical information, it does not include any evidence for their thesis that the GDR's mismanagement of their semiconductor industry was a greater contributor to the country's bankruptcy than their mismanagement of all the other branches of the economy. If they would have directed some of the resources spent in attempts to modernize the semiconductor industry t…

Not sure, but the costs for chips a lot was probably in $ while other things were paid in (GDR) Mark, and $ was very scarce. [Edit] Couldn't find a research paper on GDR chip production and costs in $ vs. Mark.

While they could not export towards Western countries, semiconductor devices formed a significant fraction of their exports to the Soviet Union and to the countries dominated by the Soviet Union, i.e. to the other members of the Comecon.

If the GDR had not used most of its resources for a greater development in the domains of semiconductor devices, precision mechanics and optics than most other members of Comecon, it is likely that they would not have been able to export much except food, which they did not have enough even for themselves, while needing to import a lot of resources that they did not have.

If Asianometry had made a video with the similar title "How Semiconductors Ruined Intel", that title would be closer to the truth, because during most of the last decade the performance of Intel in developing semiconductor manufacturing has been much worse than that of the GDR.

Hopefully the woes of Intel will end this year with the launch of the "Intel 4" process, but before that Intel has succeeded in 6-7 years to transform an advantage of 2-3 years in semiconductor manufacturing against all others into a handicap of 2-3 years compared to the top competitors.

By contrast, GDR has started with a handicap of at least 10 years against USA (the US semiconductor industry has been created in the middle of WW2, for the fabrication of radar diodes) and after some 35 years it still had about the same 10 years of handicap.

While GDR and the other communist countries have never been able to reduce the technological gap between them and USA, they also never had any such tremendous fall behind, like Intel, where it seems that the management methods and the internal cooperation between divisions have not been better than those that were rightly criticized for GDR.

Unfortunately bad management is not an exclusive feature of the "planned" communist economies, but it becomes more and more frequent in the present economies that have become dominated by quasi-monopolies everywhere.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#273
post #227
post #178

For those unfamiliar with the region (Saxony, Dresden): A registered association ( e.V. in German) bluntly named "Silicon Saxony e.V." (est. in 2000) with over 450 members headquartered in Dresden pretty much sums up the infrastructure and ambition.[0][1] As pointed out the process TSMC’s 28/22 nanometer planar CMOS and 16/12 nanometer FinFET process technology (fabrication will begin in 2027) is not "cutting edge" b…

Having lived there for a decade, I must point out that you are painting a very one sided picture of the region. It's also a hot spot for Germany's populist right. I've witnessed visiting Indian colleagues of mine being threatened on the street for having dark skin and racist demonstrations are a weekly occurrence. I eventually moved away (among other reasons) because I didn't want my kids to grow up in this environme…

Sorry to hear that. I wasn't trying to downplay the issue, I was just recounting from own experiences just visiting the cities (Leipzig, Dresden) multiple times.

>The city itself and university are super nice though.

Then, I hope this will get more widespread :)

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#274
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The technology is roughly 10 years behind, but in the scenario that the replacement capability becomes important is something like Trump fumbles the great power competition and US and China have a nice nuclear moment. And frankly making do with Haswell era CPUs is lamentable but as far as nuclear exchanges go not that bad.

[flagged]

Such as?

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't build factories in a country that's going to sink.

The Dutch have beat the sea back for hundreds of years. They will be fine

they can keep the sea out but they cannot keep the river out. Climate change will lead to flooding and ice melt on the upstream Rijn and most of that water ends up in the netherlands.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It is a bit off-topic, but the Biden admin hasn't done anything like that indeed. In fact, nuclear exchange is self-destruction. No one is stupid enough to do that, even Trump wouldn't be. So parent's remark is off. For chips to be blocked going to Germany doesn't thus require a nuclear exchange. You rather should think of smth like military aggression from China towards Taiwan.

Shooting down the Chinese ballon and arming Ukraine with long range weapons aren't potentially acts of provocation against nuclear powers?

Reverse the roles. American ballon. Mexico getting armed against the US by a foreign superpower and sworn enemy. Would the US tolerate those acts?

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a bit off-topic, but the Biden admin hasn't done anything like that indeed. In fact, nuclear exchange is self-destruction. No one is stupid enough to do that, even Trump wouldn't be. So parent's remark is off. For chips to be blocked going to Germany doesn't thus require a nuclear exchange. You rather should think of smth like military aggression from China towards Taiwan.

Shooting down the Chinese ballon and arming Ukraine with long range weapons aren't potentially acts of provocation against nuclear powers? Reverse the roles. American ballon. Mexico getting armed against the US by a foreign superpower and sworn enemy. Would the US tolerate those acts?

People forget that JFK nearly nuked the USSR over the Cuban missile crisis (which was a response to NATO missiles in Turkey, ironically enough).

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#278
post #3

Wonder if the Taiwanese govt at some point will step in and block these onshoring measures as a matter of national security. If countries are less reliant on manufacturing within Taiwan, its one less reason to stand up to Beijing's one China principle.

TSMC is not building GIGAFAB outside Taiwan.

This in Germany and the one in the US are both Megafabs.They produce chips for special industries with strategic importance. In the US for military and defense, in the Europe for automotive industry and automation.

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a bit off-topic, but the Biden admin hasn't done anything like that indeed. In fact, nuclear exchange is self-destruction. No one is stupid enough to do that, even Trump wouldn't be. So parent's remark is off. For chips to be blocked going to Germany doesn't thus require a nuclear exchange. You rather should think of smth like military aggression from China towards Taiwan.

Shooting down the Chinese ballon and arming Ukraine with long range weapons aren't potentially acts of provocation against nuclear powers? Reverse the roles. American ballon. Mexico getting armed against the US by a foreign superpower and sworn enemy. Would the US tolerate those acts?

> Would the US tolerate those acts?

Yes? What about their nuclear policy from the past half-century convinces you otherwise?

Re: TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, NXP to jointly build semiconductor fab in Europe

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure, but the costs for chips a lot was probably in $ while other things were paid in (GDR) Mark, and $ was very scarce. [Edit] Couldn't find a research paper on GDR chip production and costs in $ vs. Mark.

While they could not export towards Western countries, semiconductor devices formed a significant fraction of their exports to the Soviet Union and to the countries dominated by the Soviet Union, i.e. to the other members of the Comecon. If the GDR had not used most of its resources for a greater development in the domains of semiconductor devices, precision mechanics and optics than most other members of Comecon, it…

(I have no clue about the stuff you say about Intel)

I again couldn't find a lot of data on the exports you've mentioned, but I do guess if it's CPUs it was mainly reverse engineered, illegally produced Z80 ("U880").

It looks like the GDR did reverse engineer a 80286 ("U80601") and started limited production in 1989, in very low numbers because of production problems (The West was using 486 at that point). So it is unclear how reverse engineering of CPUs would progress

  Z80 8.5k transistors
  286 134k transistors
  386 275k transistors (+ 120k for 387)
  486 >1200k transistors (the 486 had an FPU)
(As the GDR also illegally cloned DEC MicroVax systems, there is a "U80701" MicroVax clone with 130k transistors, same like the 286 clone. This doesn't seem to have gone into production)

The reason the GDR could not pull it off where manifold. First the Eastern block countries tried a different concept in IT in the 50s and 60s compared to the West, that proved not as practical. Second the GDR lost time by reverse engineering and spending money on smuggling CPUs and machines. Third the West had a huge network of companies building a supply chain for production of semiconductors. The GDR (or Eastern block) would have needed to bootstrap the whole supply chain by it's own. The Western supply chain in semiconductors was probably 1000x the value and people the GDR did or could spend.

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