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The past is not true

sive.rs

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Re: The past is not true

#271

Post by gary_0 »

archon1410 wrote: post #269
metacritic12 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think misanthropes aren't being enabled by articles like the above. Many of them honestly don't care deep down about the damage they do. Others like Mark Wahlberg just "forgive themselves" for blinding a neighbor as a teen, even if their actual victim doesn't forgive them, so they can feel better about themselves mentally. https://time.com/3623630/mark-wahlberg-pardon/

Tangential: those who couldn't care less would be nihilists, or sadists. "Misanthrope" is better reserved for something else. I guess it all just blends together from certain standpoints... it shouldn't.

Supertangential: Nihilists just don't believe existence is intrinsically meaningful, and sadists take pleasure in inflicting suffering. A more correct term for someone who is indifferent to the suffering they cause might be a "narcissist" or "sociopath".

Re: The past is not true

#272

Post by civilitty »

bittercynic wrote: post #229
mrguyorama wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Accept that sometimes when you do a bad thing that permanently harms someone else you don't deserve forgiveness (not everyone is christian FFS) and it's not wrong for that to follow you around forever. If that makes you uncomfortable, too fucking bad, don't irreversibly blind someone.

If you make a mistake like this, where you owe a debt that can never be repaid, I think we need some social mechanism where you can do your best to make amends and get some measure of closure. This probably should follow you around forever, but maybe it shouldn't dominate every moment of the rest of your life.

He’s an A-list actor who makes tens of millions of dollars per film. He can make what most of us would consider “fuck you money” in the span of a few months. By no means does it dominate his life.

I dont think he shows real contrition either. After that Times article he backpedaled on the pardon request and told an interviewer months later that he was “pushed into it.”

Re: The past is not true

#273

Post by progmetaldev »

Jiro wrote: post #216
stronglikedan wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Accepting those things seems like a miserable way to live. No thanks. I prefer to move on with my life, even when I was wronged.

This is about if you have wronged someone else, not if you are wronged, If you've wronged someone else, maybe you should live miserably if you can't possibly make up for the wrong.

There is also power in discovering how to forgive yourself, especially if your wrong was unintentional, or you made a mistake that you deeply regret. It's too easy to walk around with guilt in your life, and maybe you don't ever get to speak to the one you wronged. Should you take that to your grave? Does that help anyone?

Re: The past is not true

#274

Post by kelnos »

cayblood wrote: post #236
mrguyorama wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Accept that sometimes when you do a bad thing that permanently harms someone else you don't deserve forgiveness (not everyone is christian FFS) and it's not wrong for that to follow you around forever. If that makes you uncomfortable, too fucking bad, don't irreversibly blind someone.

One of the profound contributions of Christianity, corroborated in other wisdom traditions, is the assertion that every single one of us ignorantly does irreparable harm to others in the course of our lifetimes. Recognizing this is the beginning of wisdom, and figuring out how to live life in light of this reality has been the driving force behind many different philosophies and religious traditions passed down over…

> One of the profound contributions of Christianity, corroborated in other wisdom traditions, is the assertion that every single one of us ignorantly does irreparable harm to others in the course of our lifetimes.

The problem, though, with Christianity's take on it (or at least what some Christians take from it), is that they push the idea that all you need to do to achieve salvation is to believe in Jesus as savior, and all is fine and dandy. Doesn't matter what sins you've committed, or if you're even truly repentant. Just believe Jesus died for your sins, and you're good.

On one hand I agree that this could promote acceptance that we are all flawed beings, and will all end up doing bad things here and there, and that it's pretty much unavoidable. But I worry that this also can promote a sense of invulnerability and unaccountability. "Doesn't matter what I do, Jesus will take care of me."

Re: The past is not true

#275

Post by aodonnell2536 »

cayblood wrote: post #236
mrguyorama wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Accept that sometimes when you do a bad thing that permanently harms someone else you don't deserve forgiveness (not everyone is christian FFS) and it's not wrong for that to follow you around forever. If that makes you uncomfortable, too fucking bad, don't irreversibly blind someone.

One of the profound contributions of Christianity, corroborated in other wisdom traditions, is the assertion that every single one of us ignorantly does irreparable harm to others in the course of our lifetimes. Recognizing this is the beginning of wisdom, and figuring out how to live life in light of this reality has been the driving force behind many different philosophies and religious traditions passed down over…

This is a line of thinking that really intrigues me, are there any external resources you would suggest to further read about it? Other than the Bible, of course

Re: The past is not true

#276

Post by progmetaldev »

mrguyorama wrote: post #258
superb_dev wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are some accidents truly unforgivable? No one should be punished for the rest of their life because they wronged someone in their childhood. If they’ve grown, feel remorse and regret, then they’ve done their time and need to forgive themselves. There no point in carrying around such a burden. Very few people deserve to be miserable.

This post does not limit itself to true accidents. Indeed, both people involved were negligent. Preventable harm that you do not prevent through your own choices can very well be unforgivable. Pretending that everything should be forgivable is a heinous thing to do to victims, and they have every right to not forgive or forget if you have caused them irreversible harm through negligence or accident. A victim has the…

I can't necessarily agree with this. Some people are hurt over extremely minor offenses, which may or may not have been an accident. What if the perpetrator of the offense has grown and tried to make amends for the wrong they've done? Do they need to carry the burden of guilt forever? I think there is room for forgiveness of oneself, even if those you have burdened do not forgive you. Maybe it's not the same, but everyone is different. I would hate to think that someone in their early teen years did something selfish and stupid (like most of us do), and they were not forgiven by the victim, and they had to carry that with them to the end of their life. Society does not grow with an overwhelming sense of guilt (now, this is very different if you intentionally cause malice and are truly not sorry, and do nothing to make things right).

Re: The past is not true

#277

Post by progmetaldev »

femiagbabiaka wrote: post #232
mrguyorama wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Accept that sometimes when you do a bad thing that permanently harms someone else you don't deserve forgiveness (not everyone is christian FFS) and it's not wrong for that to follow you around forever. If that makes you uncomfortable, too fucking bad, don't irreversibly blind someone.

This is basically the raison d'etre of the American justice system today. Of course, I also think it would be nice if someone who committed hate crimes was justly punished for it, but stepping back from this specific example, I think the bloodlust around what constitutes a "just punishment" goes too far in most cases.

The American justice system seems to be based upon profit, and keeping people reoffending in order to continue keeping the justice system in place. There is no incentive to reform as the system currently stands. It is a major failure of society that recidivism is an expected consequence of being "in the system."

Re: The past is not true

#278

Post by m463 »

miiiiiike wrote: post #134

He did the right thing by seeking her out to apologize. The rest doesn’t hold water. “There’s a small chance that the chaos and ruin I’ve visited upon others may not be as bad as as those people made me think. Thanks, I knew my negligence/malice wasn’t that big a deal.” The worst people that I’ve ever met would love for that to be true. They’ll stab people in the back or work to damage people’s careers and when you c…

I'm sort of reminded of some of those alcoholics anonymous folks who apologize to the people who they have wronged, and are dumbfounded to find they are met with anger, or even being arrested.

Re: The past is not true

#279

Post by brudgers »

miiiiiike wrote: post #196
brudgers wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone is not among the worst people you (or I) have ever met. Not needing to be told that they caused harm is one of the things that makes them not among the worst people you (or I) have ever met. Sivers' parable is about his (and our) interpretations of the past -- Sive.rs publishes parables not facts. Context is relevant, here. Yes, worst people gonna' worst people. Sociopaths are not Sive.rs audience. His point…

The people I’m referencing are normal people doing things that are accepted as a normal part of doing business. They do it because there are no consequences and may even been an advantage to engaging in light anti-social behavior. That lady just had a baby and needs to go home at 5:00 PM says one NPR reporter/podcaster/host early in their career? Sound like she’s not committed, I’ll take on her work as I, for one, am…

Those may be the worst people you ever met. I have met rather worse people.

Re: The past is not true

#280

Post by JackFr »

mrguyorama wrote: post #198
amp108 wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what's inside Mark Wahlberg's heart, but let's suppose it's someone whom, for the sake of argument, we know truly regrets their actions: what are they supposed to do if another person doesn't forgive them?

Accept that sometimes when you do a bad thing that permanently harms someone else you don't deserve forgiveness (not everyone is christian FFS) and it's not wrong for that to follow you around forever. If that makes you uncomfortable, too fucking bad, don't irreversibly blind someone.

Well that’s the thing. No one deserves forgiveness (Christians especially should know that forgiveness is not earned with merit, but distributed with grace.) But genuine forgiveness is a powerful thing, though it’s very hard.
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