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Millions snap up new Germany-wide public transit ticket

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Re: Millions snap up new Germany-wide public transit ticket

#271

Post by inferiorhuman »

wpietri wrote: post #235
inferiorhuman wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SF Bay Area really did the right thing here. No, no they really didn't. They spent millions rebranding it, there is (was?) a huge lag between adding value and posting the value depending on how you added value. The original card readers were incredibly unreliable, and because Clipper/TransLink did absolutely nothing to unify* the fare structure across the twenty-four different systems you could be set up for a na…

It's not a perfect thing, sure. But it's a big step forward. It's hugely better than having to deal with each system separately; I've had days when I've used 4 systems, for example. As you note with the pricing complexity, there is just a wide divergence of views and interests on how to run a transit system. And I get it; I think there are legitimate reasons people picked those different pricing systems. But they fig…

  I've had days when I've used 4 systems, for example.
Sure, I've done similar trips and the worst part was not the payment but rather the obstacles that BART puts up and the sparse service in the suburbs. BART's TVMs have historically made it difficult to pay with cash and credit cards. TransLink/Clipper didn't fix that.

  If people are interested in the history that drives some of what it
  ended up the way it did
The answer is, of course, that the Bay Area is fiercely provincial. The disparate payment methods were merely a symptom, as is evidenced by the wide array of fare policies. We didn't/don't need a single payment system we need a single hierarchy to unify all of the different transit systems and then we need that hierarchy to implement a single fare policy across the whole Bay Area.

  For younger developers who are used to everything being connected, it's
  really worth thinking about how you'd build a reasonably robust, hard-to-exploit
  system when many of the important terminals, as on busses, were usually out of contact.
The problem with this is that by the time TransLink rolled around the rest of the world already had the technology and did a better job. Portland's TriMet had mobile payments (QR codes and NFC) long before the Bay Area. Mifare had already been exploited, and a huge chunk of the Bay Area's buses were connected to cellular data networks.

Even in 2010 having to wait up to 72 hours for your transit card payment to post was insane. Having to do so in 2023 ought to be criminal. Let's not forget that Clipper basically absolves the transit agencies of any responsibility – so when your card is stolen you generally cannot cancel it immediately. Let's also not forget that TransLink/Clipper's had a variety of payment problems from spurious charges to autoload failing en masse to simply not charging people as required.

Re: Millions snap up new Germany-wide public transit ticket

#272

Post by panick21_ »

timellis-smith wrote: post #9
bleep_bloop wrote: post #2

Controversial opinion: Public transport should be publicly owned.

Theres a really interesting graph showing rail usage under both public and private ownership in GB. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/GB... I'll let you draw your own conclusions From this page https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail

There is a big problem with this graph. Its highly misleading.

Because in other parts even of Great Britain, like Norther Ireland, it was always public and it shows the exact same pattern. And many other countries had the same effect too.

It just so happens British Rail happened right at the time when the basic understanding of governments in Britain and most the world were anti railway and pro building an absurd amount of highways.

Lots of the increase in early part of semi privatization period in Britain happened and were only possible because of investments done by British rail. It very likely that the same effect would have happened under British rail. In fact the whole system basically operated on many of the same principles set up by British rail for quite a while.

In reality the government in the 'private' period still determined what prices and schedules were. And the same prices and schedules could and would have been done by British rail.

Next up, in this private period, Network Rail, they private company responsible for infrastructure so mismanaged and the infrastructure was about to collapse (they managed this in less then 10 years), so it was emergency reacquired by the government who then had to do lots of delayed infrastructure maintenance at high cost.

Rail nationalization in Britain made no sense. Even the people that did it didn't really have a good plan or reason why they wanted do it other then privatizing things seemed popular with right wing parties. They basically threw together a haphazard plan with a bunch of consultants who had little knowlage of railways.

> I'll let you draw your own conclusions

Yes feel free, but don't do it based on a single highly misleading graph without understanding the context.

If anybody is actually interested in the British railway network and history, I would recommend the RailNatter podcast.

Re: Millions snap up new Germany-wide public transit ticket

#273

Post by gravypod »

bahnkenner wrote: post #43

The biggest advantage of the new Germany-wide ticket is not the price, but rather that it simplifies things. This is a map of German public transit companies: [0]. I've heard the current fractured system be compared to the Holy Roman Empire. Every little region has its own ticketing system. If you arrive in a new city, you have to figure out how to buy local transit tickets, often with quite complicated rules (e.g.,…

If only NY/NJ could figure this out. I often take a longer route to work as it's much cheaper than buying the three separate tickets I'd need.

Re: Millions snap up new Germany-wide public transit ticket

#274

Post by BasedGroyper99 »

kelnos wrote: post #149
BasedGroyper99 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I drink water from a public water fountain why is that in the public's interest? If there were no fountain, then many people would get water bottles and that's too big of a hassle. Defining a public good is quite hard, and any definition will most likely other controversial terms like "reasonably" or "foreseeable" in them. However, I think a public good is something that can be shared by many people in reasonabl…

> If there were no fountain, then many people would get water bottles and that's too big of a hassle. Right, and if there was no public transit, then many more people would need to buy and drive cars, and that's not great for the public's interest either.

But a fountain is something that naturally occurs. It is used in that way because it gives more water than anyone can use, but enough water for everyone in reasonable amounts. It's not just some kind of lesser evil. Trains and railroads must first be built and maintained, they are on the same level as roads and busses.

I think there is a difference between providing the opportunity and giving things out for free.

Re: Millions snap up new Germany-wide public transit ticket

#275

Post by EngManagerIsMe »

snvzz wrote: post #267

Public, thus paid by everybody through taxes. Yet, for some reason, it can only be taken advantage of by people who can afford to pay the ticket. Nevermind the fact having the ticket system in the first place does cost money.

Agreed. This is actually a "why public systems fail" critique approaching from the left -- we assume systems need a cost to function correctly. For something like transit, collecting fares involves:

1) Systems and equipment to issue and collect fares -- boxes, kiosks, scanners, currency handling, staff to collect and deposit currency, arrangements with payment providers, educational materials about paying fares, websites with instructions on how to pay fares (often in multiple languages)

2) Systems to enforce fare payment -- humans, typically, to police the fares

3) Systems to analyze fare rates -- are fares too low, too high, are they being paid at the correct rates, do we need to publish new content on how much fares are changing this year

4) Queues to pay fares -- entering a bus or train requires a turnstile, tap, or other impediment that slows access

5) Systems to ensure everyone has access -- either fares price out the poorest, or we provide means for the poor to get reduced and free fares. Provide systems for workers to get fares subsidized through their workplaces.

These systems are really inefficient. I mean, they might be run efficiently, but their existence is itself an inefficiency. If we believe transit is useful and valuable, we could simply pay for it once in taxes. Cutting out all the fare maintenance systems would save a huge amount of money, which could be spent on maintenance, comfort, cleaning, additional routes, etc. and the experience would be much nicer (hop on/hop off whenever you need).

Re: Millions snap up new Germany-wide public transit ticket

#276

Post by jameshart »

roamerz wrote: post #243
TulliusCicero wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The new ticket is an excellent example of when national government can be superior to more local government: when the national government forces coordination to solve fragmentation problems, where local agencies lacked the... motivation to solve things on their own. On a technical level, it was always possible for different transit agencies to cooperate to simplify things for consumers, but they didn't, and…

Agreed. Another much needed example would be nationwide reciprocity for concealed carry firearms. It’s too easy to be on the wrong side of the law when crossing state lines and the regulatory nuances are difficult to understand state to state.

It seems like there is a very easy way to remain on the right side of concealed carry laws, which is to simply not carry a concealed weapon. If you want to do so, familiarizing yourself with the laws as you cross state lines is the very least you can do.

Demanding reciprocity is like saying ‘I should be able to turn right on red lights in NYC because my car has Jersey plates’.

Re: Millions snap up new Germany-wide public transit ticket

#277

Post by bombcar »

ghaff wrote: post #176
bombcar wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every transit system should have a “tourist day pass” that is moderately expensive but allows you to use anything for 24 hours or so.

City passes are mostly a lousy deal unless you're zipping here and there all day every day. Pay per use is almost always a better deal but you need to know the particulars and get the right card/amount.

That’s the whole point. Tourists won’t really care if they spend more than they have to, and they don’t have to worry about it at all. Regulars and the price conscious will go the cheaper route.

Re: Millions snap up new Germany-wide public transit ticket

#278

Post by jameshart »

3D30497420 wrote: post #63
bahnkenner wrote: post #43

The biggest advantage of the new Germany-wide ticket is not the price, but rather that it simplifies things. This is a map of German public transit companies: [0]. I've heard the current fractured system be compared to the Holy Roman Empire. Every little region has its own ticketing system. If you arrive in a new city, you have to figure out how to buy local transit tickets, often with quite complicated rules (e.g.,…

A good example of this complexity is Berlin. Many people have monthly passes for just A and B zones, which comprise the bulk of central Berlin. However, the new airport is just over the border in zone C, which requires an additional ticket. The transit authority knows this and will catch and fine people who neglected or forgot to buy a B to C ticket.

This is an improvement over how Berlin used to handle people who crossed arbitrary borders within the city, though.

Re: Millions snap up new Germany-wide public transit ticket

#279

Post by ghaff »

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #253
ghaff wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About 40 miles outside of Boston I'd be around $500/month to have commuter rail plus subway per month.

They're essentially actively trying to dissuade talking public transit regionally. Curious choice.

Driving and parking would cost even more. Pretty typical of commuting into major cities.

Commuting into a city, especially without free parking, on a daily basis costs a lot.

Re: Millions snap up new Germany-wide public transit ticket

#280

Post by wheels »

yarg wrote: post #259
wheels wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been confused in the last couple of threads related to this topic how responses like yours exist. Trying to be constructive, I'm going to float a theory: you live in Silicon Valley and that doesn't seem like much money? For a German pensioner, in many cases, this would represent more than 5% of post-rent living costs. For my girlfriend, a manager of a team of 16 people (in non-tech in Germany) it's more than 5%…

> I'm going to float a theory: you live in Silicon Valley and that doesn't seem like much money? I'm a suicidal burn out trying to drag my mind back from oblivion, I sure as shit am not on silicon valley money. Also: > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. Your argument's a straw man, regardless of the fact that y…

> What's the percentage of overall income? Half of that? So low that your argument holds very little water.

Yeah, about that. Do you think most working class people are flippant about costs that take 2.5% of their pre-tax income?

I'm in favor of the €49/month ticket. It's a step forward. But I genuinely don't understand how (and it feels like some sort of cultural or social class disconnect) that seems trivial to people, and wonder if it's not being acclimatized to German non-tech incomes.

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