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Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

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Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#271

I read some Krisnarmurti. We can put a thousand kinds of labels -truthfull ?- on it. And he is known as a person who constantly talks about seeking the truth. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiddu_Krishnamurti ) One of the features that I pay attention to in his speeches is that he always puts reality in a high, inaccessible, -perhaps-mystical place, interacting with people like sitting together in parks and public p…

It is said that the universe came from the big bang. As a person who is familiar with Krishnamurti, where do you think reality comes from?

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, some minority of people will react this way, but that shouldn’t result in the default feedback being unkind.

I don’t mean to justify or suggest being unkind as a default. In fact, I’ll take the opportunity to say to the person reading this (yes, you): endeavor to be as kind as possible as often as possible. Instead, I recognize that some people cannot be kindly (again, from their perspective) criticized. There is no, “That was disrespectful,” which is taken at face value. When this person hears such a phrase being directed…

I agree that's a useful reminder to consider when providing feedback.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#273
post #268
post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I'm not sure I understand you fully, because I don't know where the phrase 'good enough' came from in this context.) In terms of gauging one's impact on others and calibrating one's expression—that's definitely a long, hard road for a lot of us. But just the insight that being right isn't sufficient already gets you a big chunk of the way. This comes up with HN moderation because people frequently break the site rul…

> I believe you that you care about those, but no one cares only about those. If I were you I would cultivate the skill of tracking my other motives as well. That isn't comfortable, but it eventually produces huge benefits in just the area you're asking about. Best of all, it doesn't require you to give up any of your passion for truth and reason. You just widen the frame to include more information. As you become mo…

> first-and-foremost a problem at the receiving end (given they are delivered respectfully)

The problem is that respect has many layers. What the speaker considers respectful may not at all be experienced as respect by the listener.

I think we all need to work on both sides: we need to do a better job of listening to truth instead of rejecting it; and we also need to do a better job of calibrating how we express the truth so that our expression can have good effects rather than harmful ones.

In my experience, people who see themselves as deliverers of objective truth and see other people as deficient in truth-hearing capacity (I'd include myself in this group btw) do tend to have an oversimplified view of this, and yes, do tend to be unconscious of the effects they're producing, which they mostly ascribe to inadequacy in their audience.

Don't get me wrong—I'm not suggesting that anyone reduce their passion for truth. I'm saying it's one axis and there are other axes that are orthogonal to that one—for example the relational axis. Where you're located on those other axes also matters. If you occupy a point of high passion on the objectivity/truth axis and low awareness on the relational axis, it becomes easy to cause both others and oneself a lot of pain. You can think of the truth—especially uncomfortable truth—as a power tool. Wielding it skillfully is important.

The solution is to maintain one's high passion for objectivity and truth while at the same time taking up the work of advancing where one stands on the other axes.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#274
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It was a frustrated outburst regarding something about which I had repeated (and more discretely) commented. Okay, I’ll grant that my first impression might’ve been wrong. > And there was no constructive way to address the situation where someone simply is not smart enough to learn their required tasks. I think maybe there’s something constructive in just separating your assessment of someone’s present skills from…

> Have you never found yourself in a position where you didn’t know enough to be proficient I've never been in a position where I lacked the ability to develop the skills that I needed to be proficient. If I were ever that inadequate on a team project, I would leave of my own volition.

You're literally telling us about an incident where you were not proficient and don't even recognize the skills you would need to develop to have handled it better. The other version of this story is "yea I had this dev, did fine as a developer so long as you just babysat him through every interaction with someone else. Like, one time he just told this other engineering manager that he would have to do the testing on a project because this dev guy didn't know how to test stuff and he didn't think the assigned tester was any good at his job - and he'd just been sitting on this clusterfuck for months! I learned I had to just coax him into actually telling me about anything that wasn't literally written in an IDE. God, talk about exhausting. He didn't need a manager, he needed a social skills teacher."

And you're using this incident as an example of why social skills don't matter....

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#275

My 2¢: Don't tell someone they're wrong. You'll never convince them, even when you're right. It's not worth the ink (or the blood pressure). Instead, guide them towards the path to figuring out for themselves that they're wrong. Build a foundation of truths and facts they can evaluate their own beliefs against. If they change their mind, great. If they don't learn, you're no worse off than you were before (and your b…

[deleted]

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And neither is anyone who’s neurodivergent “perfectly rational”. That’s not a helpful stereotype, all on its own, without any characterization of our emotional capacity or supposed prioritization of whatever mode of thought.

What they said was factual enough. What they did not say was anything more than that. They are not guilty of anyone else's (your) embellishments.

What did I embellish?

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And neither is anyone who’s neurodivergent “perfectly rational”. That’s not a helpful stereotype, all on its own, without any characterization of our emotional capacity or supposed prioritization of whatever mode of thought.

What they said was factual enough. What they did not say was anything more than that. They are not guilty of anyone else's (your) embellishments.

Also when did I say anyone was guilty of anything? I should probably stop coming back and rereading this response and wondering why what little I said is being construed as the opposite of what I said.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What they said was factual enough. What they did not say was anything more than that. They are not guilty of anyone else's (your) embellishments.

What did I embellish?

Every part of your comment was an accusation based on your own embellishments.

They are not guilty of claiming or even implying that all neurodivergent are purely rational. You produced that yourself, and said it's wrong. Well, true it is wrong, and they are not guilty of saying that. Your comment was in response to theirs and not in a vacuum, and so the most reasonable interpretation of your comment is as response to theirs.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What did I embellish?

Every part of your comment was an accusation based on your own embellishments. They are not guilty of claiming or even implying that all neurodivergent are purely rational. You produced that yourself, and said it's wrong. Well, true it is wrong, and they are not guilty of saying that. Your comment was in response to theirs and not in a vacuum, and so the most reasonable interpretation of your comment is as response t…

> accusation

I specifically said I didn’t think it was intended.

> They are not guilty of claiming or even implying that all neurodivergent are purely rational.

That’s not what I thought they said either. They said that “perfectly rational engineer (read: human being) doesn't exist outside of a select few neurodivergant folks”. My objection is that no person is perfectly rational, neurodivergent or otherwise, and identifying even a select few as such might reinforce the stereotype even unintentionally.

Re: Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth? (2019)

#280
Almost all the time the “truth” is less important than the values and feelings of people involved. Humans are emotional beings first and foremost. I have met a few “super rational” people in my life and they were clearly driven by strong emotions. Emotions they were blind to or refused to acknowledge. They also typically didn’t understand that all rational value judgement is relative to and built on top of a foundation of axiomatic values that are different for different individuals. So your “rational” truth might not be my “rational” truth.
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