Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#271

Post by nemo44x » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:54 PM UTC

itsoktocry wrote: post #175

29athrowaway wrote: post #31

[flagged]

Every single reply in this thread that even questions America as the "good guys" is downvoted instantly.

This site skews fairly liberal/progressive and the progressives are "The System" today so of course they jealously defend it from criticism on any front. It's a bit disorienting because traditionally the left has been the critic/counter culture, but they've won the meaningful and influential cultural and economic institutions (universities, media, tech, etc) over the last 50 years.

Sure, they aren't the flag waving (well, not American flags anyways) patriots we see on the other side. Those guys live in a make believe place that will never come back. The left however has won bigger prizes - not just American institutions but globally across Europe, parts of Asia, and South America. So yes, criticizing this machine is an afront on what's right according to hegemonic power.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#272

Post by go13 » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:55 PM UTC

sbaiddn wrote: post #265

go13 wrote: post #60

Great step for the West and civilized nations! Countries with similar civilized values should not be naïve and be ready to stand up to barbarians including being aggressive when needed, and yes, EXPAND! And certainly the West should not be ashamed for standing for its values and what is right, otherwise there is a wide range of ambitious nations who think that their way is unique and the only way to deal with others…

You speak of civilized nations, but very generally. I'll ask my friend from Donetsk for the list.

I have a friend from Donetsk too who grew up there, don't worry. He was making molotov's cocktail when there was a threat that russia would capture Kyiv.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#273

Post by lawn » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:55 PM UTC

ghiculescu wrote: post #139

nathanlied wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem there is that you (and Putin) are viewing NATO's expansion as a curtailing of "Russia's sovereignty". Doing this probably means you take the view that the Spheres of Influence concept was correct: big blocs (Russia, China, US, EU) have an area of political/military/ideological influence that extends past their physical borders, and any other country exerting influence over the countries within those bound…

I agree spheres of influence is a worrying idea. But couldn’t you argue the same thing is happening to Ukraine under a US sphere of influence? Isn’t that bad too?

No, there's a huge difference between people wanting to get closer to a country compared to being coerced by genocide to.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#274

Post by tephra » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:55 PM UTC

lawn wrote: post #257

BurningFrog wrote: post #225

Meanwhile, Sweden's NATO application is blocked by Turkey because former Peshmerga fighter Amineh Kakabaveh happened to become very powerful in the chaotic Swedish parliament a few years ago. The story: https://www.outlookindia.com/international/former-kurdish-re...

That's a simplification, and there are a bunch of other reasons. The dictator Erdogan wanting to pressure Sweden and NATO for instance.

The most important reasons IMHO are (1) domestic election and (2) wanting to get a hold of some F-16s for their air force.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#275

Post by akho » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:55 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #194

myth_drannon wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And before the Revolution, Tsarist regime did even more horrowing things to its people. Sadly Russia never had a ruling entity that was good. Well there was hope in the 80's with Gorbachev and Krushev with his Thaw period, but these were short lived and the system went back to its stable state of terrorizing its citizens.

The Soviet Union killed between 20-60 million of its own people. Did Tsarist Russia really do anything that competes with that?

Tsarist Russia enslaved most of its population for centuries.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#276

Post by GartzenDeHaes » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:55 PM UTC

tokai wrote: post #36

Auracle wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

*Without using their nukes

Nukes are useless tactically. Especially when you can't provide CBRN uniforms and training to all your troops.

> Nukes are useless tactically

This seems to be the case, but no one knows for sure. It's likely that there are people in power who think they can gain an advantage using tactical nukes. Some weapons are specifically designed for this purpose, such as the American ER weapons (PDF) https://www.llnl.gov/sites/www/files/1975.pdf

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#277

Post by mastax » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:56 PM UTC

sbaiddn wrote: post #255

foverzar wrote: post #229

So, this is mostly a US-centric forum, but I wonder what is the take on this from the perspective of a Finnish person. Is there any controversy or concerns of becoming a foothold for future conflicts? This whole thing has been dragging on for sometime now, had the opinions shifted over time?

Well the PM who nursed this just lost the election. But I suspect most Fins agree with the decision.

Lost the election (while gaining seats) to a party which has been pro-NATO for longer.

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#278

Post by staringback » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:56 PM UTC

_djo_ wrote: post #176

itsoktocry wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

No. NATO deployed some forces in Afghanistan as a result of the triggering of Article 5 in response to the 9/11 attacks, though it wasn't an all-out action and wasn't carried out through NATO's command structures. NATO did not deploy offensive forces into Iraq as an organisation. Some NATO members did on their own accord outside of NATO, but the organisation itself only ever had a non-combat training and advisory mis…

What about Yugoslavia in 1999?

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#279

Post by zimzam » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:56 PM UTC

foverzar wrote: post #229

So, this is mostly a US-centric forum, but I wonder what is the take on this from the perspective of a Finnish person. Is there any controversy or concerns of becoming a foothold for future conflicts? This whole thing has been dragging on for sometime now, had the opinions shifted over time?

According to articles I've read polling indicates 80% support amongst the Finnish population

Re: Finland becomes the 31st member of NATO

#280

Post by rainworld » Tue, Apr 04, 2023, 2:56 PM UTC

khochesh_kushat wrote: post #202

rainworld wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “three day war” and the other stuff have always been American talking points that have been regurgitated uncritcally a million times. Yeah, people in the West have been sold the idea that Ukraine is winning (talking about the real Ukrainian losses (not the fantasy numbers you sometimes hear) is strictly forbidded tho), I noticed. Let’s wait till it’s over I say...

I guess you don't watch Russian TV? I'm lucky (or maybe unlucky) enough to speak Russian so I have access. They say much more bombastic things than just these points all the time. They have their own reality distortion field over there and it leads them to make terrible decisions. I'm quite certain that Russia is not secretly winning the war, but it's just that nobody can tell because of how great it's going.

Can’t watch Russian TV because the wise rulers of the superstate I reside in prevent me from doing that, for my safety. Not that I’d want to, because I don’t expect good information there either. Thankfully, there are other ways to inform oneself of the course of the war.

Well, sounds like the Ukrainian side is about to start it’s much-anticipated Decisive Battle offensive. The overall picture should become clearer once the dust from that has settled.