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Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

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Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#271

Post by [deleted] »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #147
Quarrelsome wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd vehemently disagree. There's a clear cultural divide between the average of the US and the average of Europe on many topics, albeit much of that is a cause of the large quantity of remaining traditionalists in the US skewing the American average. For example there's clear differences on secularism, gun-rights, access to abortion, universal healthcare, labour laws, privacy and regulation. > The silent death of eur…

When I go back to France I see burgers sold everywhere and massively more English words, both compared to 20 years ago. French culture has very noticeably diluted in that relatively short time.

[deleted]

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#272

Post by notpachet »

vkou wrote: post #264
ghusto wrote: post #95

On the one hand: If your culture needs a preservation movement, it's not a culture, but a relic. Culture is defined by people, not some sacred thing that needs to be preserved. How much of the Italian cuisine they're trying to protect would exist if they had the same attitude in the 1500s, when the tomato was introduced to Italy? On the other hand: I think countries should resist global cultural homogenisation. No of…

> On the one hand: If your culture needs a preservation movement, it's not a culture, but a relic. Just because some aspect of the commons would be lost to the pressures of market economics doesn't mean it's not worth preserving. If left to the tyranny of markets, we'd cut down every tree, dam every stream, catch every fish in the ocean, and the only culture you'd have would be drip-fed to you for $120/month by a tel…

Well, we're not really that far off...

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#273

Post by avgcorrection »

seydor wrote: post #109
ghusto wrote: post #95

On the one hand: If your culture needs a preservation movement, it's not a culture, but a relic. Culture is defined by people, not some sacred thing that needs to be preserved. How much of the Italian cuisine they're trying to protect would exist if they had the same attitude in the 1500s, when the tomato was introduced to Italy? On the other hand: I think countries should resist global cultural homogenisation. No of…

[flagged]

From what vantage point are you speaking?

I’ve been online for 17 years and so I’ve been very aware of the trend of “wokeism” and other things like that. I also live in the country known as Europe. Yet in “real life” I have never, ever encountered a woke, virtue-signalling stereotype. The closest I came was some other guy’s experience that he relayed to me.

And that goes for other American (or not) things that also are “online”: those things might be something that I can read about every day while online, but I might never hear it come up in “real life”.

> The media is generally importing american anxieties and US domestic issues are even adopted as local

Aside from some fringe people who are immediately made fun of by us normal baguette-eaters, no.

In fact this is absurd on its face: high speed internet (thanks America?) made it clear to all of us too-online citizens of the country of Europe that Americans have concerns and opinions that are completely alien to us:

- Trigger-happy police

- Dying because lack of health insurance

- Circumcision

- Individualism of the type “I’m against taxes because it’s involuntary; people should give out of their own free will”, and yet also when they are facing hardships themselves: “I’m not gonna accept no charity!” (…makes sense)

- Opinions on abortion

- Etc.

And people argue a lot about that. (In my experience English message boards are often split 50% between the US and 50% the rest of the world, so there are a fair few Europeans to argue with). That’s what happens 95% of the time; the other 5% is your version: “Oh wow, those things are so cool; I’m gonna adopt and argue for them here in the country of Europe.”

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#274

Post by Bayart »

908B64B197 wrote: post #187
ghusto wrote: post #95

On the one hand: If your culture needs a preservation movement, it's not a culture, but a relic. Culture is defined by people, not some sacred thing that needs to be preserved. How much of the Italian cuisine they're trying to protect would exist if they had the same attitude in the 1500s, when the tomato was introduced to Italy? On the other hand: I think countries should resist global cultural homogenisation. No of…

> How much of the Italian cuisine they're trying to protect would exist if they had the same attitude in the 1500s, when the tomato was introduced to Italy? Nitpick, but there was no such thing as "Italy" in the 1500s. There were several kingdoms and city states at war against one another. Modern Italy is a 19th century invention.

There was absolutely a sense of Italy in the 1500s, in fact it's the period where it really took off.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#276

Post by [deleted] »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #149
ghusto wrote: post #95

On the one hand: If your culture needs a preservation movement, it's not a culture, but a relic. Culture is defined by people, not some sacred thing that needs to be preserved. How much of the Italian cuisine they're trying to protect would exist if they had the same attitude in the 1500s, when the tomato was introduced to Italy? On the other hand: I think countries should resist global cultural homogenisation. No of…

I don't think its necessarily about the culture itself here, its merely a cheap populist tactic to rabble-rouse among a nation that has a rich history and struggles to handle the fact that its present isn't at that zenith. France do a lot of this sort of thing too. I would argue that belittling cultural preservation demonstrates deep Anglo-centric bias. While its fine for lulz, I worry that you're being sincere. Try…

[deleted]

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#277

Post by chimeracoder »

foldr wrote: post #267
gbrindisi wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this might be true to some extent, a huge difference between the US and Europe is that in the EU the concept of identity revolves more around nationality than ethnicity/race.

It's 'nationality' under an implicitly racialized understanding. If you are not white, having a German passport will not be enough for many Germans to consider you fully German. That's not to deny that American racial categories are either inapplicable or less central to personal identity in most European countries; but let's also not pretend that the roughly equivalent concept is some kind of bloodless bureaucratic…

> but let's also not pretend that the roughly equivalent concept is some kind of bloodless bureaucratic idea of 'nationality'.

An apt choice of words, given that almost all European countries practice jus sanguinis - literally "right of the blood". In contrast to how citizenship works in most of North and South America, people who are born in European countries do not automatically get citizenship (nationality) of the country of birth. Instead, citizenship is inherited.

This system became popular in many European countries in part because it provided a way to avoid automatically granting citizenship to immigrants from the now-former colonies, instead creating an extra barrier.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#279

Post by Bayart »

antirez wrote: post #180

Please, don't think Italians are like that. It's just this stupid government. For instance in Italian, unlike Spanish, French, ..., there are no italianized words for all the computer science words, we just use English. In general there is not a big sentiment of culture self-defence. But this government is trying to do things that will appeal the dumb people voting for it.

> there are no italianized words for all the computer science words, we just use English

You're bragging about your language being poorer.

Re: Italian government seeks to penalize the use of English words

#280

Post by giantg2 »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #160
giantg2 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"between the average of the US and the average of Europe" I'm not sure how one even defines these. As an example, most of the examples you give have a near 50/50 (+/-10%) split here in the US.

> most of the examples you give have a near 50/50 (+/-10%) split here in the US. That's what I mean. Many of those issues don't have anywhere near a 50/50 split in Europe, which is part of the definition of social norms, expectations and cultural values.

My bad, not average person, but average of the population. I got it. Although my statement still applies. You can look at voter breakdown by county to see a picture of how this 50/50 split is actually more homogeneous by locale. So there are cultural values, but they are at a more local level.
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