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Framework Laptop 16

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Re: Framework Laptop 16

#271

Post by zamerick »

dakial1 wrote: post #87

I wonder if there is a market for a framework gaming laptop. Really hope there is. Also, on another note, I've read this engadget article about how other companies tried to build an upgradeable laptop and failed but I see Framework as a different kind of beast for one simple reason. This is their only value proposition, they don't have an alternative. In a very "Innovator's Dilemma" kind of. way, Dell and other big m…

"Gaming" is a wider demographic to target and makes sense from a marketing standpoint. However, the people that benefit from the same level of hardware and would be interested in the mission and aesthetics of framework are creators. Video content, indie/hobby game dev, light modeling, design work etc. This is really the group that's going to get excited about a 16" laptop with more graphics horsepower. I know I am.

Re: Framework Laptop 16

#272

Post by ris58h »

wkat4242 wrote: post #252
nrp wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We see interesting use cases for the small modules on the left and right as well if you are not some who wants to slide the keyboard to the left and put a numpad on the right. We’re showing a prototype of an LED Matrix that can be used for low res information display, but other things like a row of extra buttons, a narrow LCD, a capacitive slider, and others are possible too. As a sibling comment noted, it is also po…

Hmm Apple really put a ton of money into making their touch bar work and even they couldn't manage to make it actually useful. If they couldn't do it, framework has no chance. I would have been a lot less critical about the touch bar if it hadn't replaced the function key row though. That one is mandatory for me, and there was more than plenty room on MacBooks to have both at the same time.

Unpopular opinion: we shouldn't use F-keys at all except for old software like Midnight Commander.

Alphanumeric shortcuts and Key Sequences should be used instead.

http://xahlee.info/kbd/banish_key_chords.html

Re: Framework Laptop 16

#273

Post by gibspaulding »

hr2016 wrote: post #200
gibspaulding wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is it/where are you? I can't think of a single vehicle available in the US that fits that description since the 90's.

Yes, I'm living in Iceland. Our car market is quite a mix. It's mostly European/Asian commuters but also with plenty of bigger US cars, mostly pickups. My specific model is a Renault Megane Estate.

That makes sense!

Re: Framework Laptop 16

#274

Post by zerocrates »

bombcar wrote: post #255
zerocrates wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not modularity, but upgradability of the CPU (through a total replacement of the motherboard) is part of the Framework pitch: keeping the form factor the same so you can do drop-in replacements. So far they have boards for Intel's 11th, 12th, and now 13th generations, and an AMD option. So they're doing pretty good on that front.

At that point it seems almost worth it just to buy another one so you have two laptops; a mainboard has to be a significant part of the cost of the whole system. (this was my problem back when I built desktops - it was almost never worth upgrading anything but RAM or disk, instead build a whole new one and repurpose/sell the old one)

It's something like a little under half the cost or so, last I checked. Not a terrible option if you're happy with the screen/keyboard/etc. bits you'd be keeping. And the one you take out can be repurposed into a mini-PC of its own, or sold.

As a desktop builder myself, I like the flexibility to upgrade (or easily replace for broken components) within the socket family (AMD in particular had a pretty wide run of compatibility recently with AM4), and even when doing a more "total" replacement down to the motherboard I could keep a good case, power supply, GPU, peripherals, etc. Just the fact that I have similar decisions open to me is interesting in the laptop space. The direction of the laptop market has otherwise been away from allowing even RAM or SSD upgrades, or making them tedious and onerous even if possible.

Re: Framework Laptop 16

#275

Post by Floegipoky »

bombcar wrote: post #255
zerocrates wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not modularity, but upgradability of the CPU (through a total replacement of the motherboard) is part of the Framework pitch: keeping the form factor the same so you can do drop-in replacements. So far they have boards for Intel's 11th, 12th, and now 13th generations, and an AMD option. So they're doing pretty good on that front.

At that point it seems almost worth it just to buy another one so you have two laptops; a mainboard has to be a significant part of the cost of the whole system. (this was my problem back when I built desktops - it was almost never worth upgrading anything but RAM or disk, instead build a whole new one and repurpose/sell the old one)

A built Framework 13" with a 13th gen intel CPU starts at $1050. Or you can grab the same mainboard for $450. For me, that's really compelling. And if you're upgrading (rather than replacing a failed component) you can still sell the old mainboard or use it as a server, etc. Not to mention the reduced ewaste compared to buying a whole new system.

Re: Framework Laptop 16

#276

Post by xenon7 »

I don't see this happening any time soon, but it would be really nice to see an 11.6 inch Framework intended for the education market. The new N series "Intel Processor" (aka Celeron/Pentium) CPUs are actually quite powerful considering they have a 6 watt TDP. The only problem would be the price.

Re: Framework Laptop 16

#277

Post by sudosysgen »

kitsunesoba wrote: post #264
Runways wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmmm. My experience with XPS 15s is you can turn it off with software in Linux, but it was pretty technical (not something average users would be keen on). I wasn't sure if that was the case for most laptops. It definitely wasn't drawing 0W when I was just coding/browsing/etc though, it doubled the battery life in Linux when I turned it off.

Yeah, my experience with iGPU+dGPU setups outside of MacBooks has been messy. Part of the problem perhaps is the various different ways it can be set up, e.g. with/without mux switch, and last I knew AMD and Nvidia handle iGPU ↔ dGPU handoffs differently rather than agreeing on a standard. With that in mind I'd also prefer that there be a way to flip off the dGPU in BIOS to guarantee that it can't unexpectedly become…

AMD and NVidia now use the same standard, which is PRIME for handoff and automatic shutdown using Runtime PM, and if needed muxes are handled by the vga-switcheroo.

On the latest NVidia/AMD hardware, no configuration should be required, unless you try to use Wayland on NVidia.

Unfortunately on NVidia you really need the latest hardware, both on the GPU and CPU side. If you do, it should generally "just work". Of course Linux is Linux and it might not.

Re: Framework Laptop 16

#278

Post by occoder »

marpstar wrote: post #179
panick21_ wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe don't generalize your personal experience. Working with almost anything can give you carpal tunnel. Is there any evidence carpal tunnel is more likely then with any other input method?

More anecdotes from me on the input-method to wrist-problems correlation: I weight train regularly. Lots of forearm tension. I noticed one day that it always hurt more when I was scrolling (using an original Apple Magic Mouse). Brutal repetitive strain injury. However, when I went for periods of time only using the trackpad in my MacBook, my arm would feel Upon realization, pretty much immediately switched to a track…

Yep, it's almost always the mouse.

Many people, developers included, use the mouse to point and click when they need to change the caret position while editing text. If you do enough of that, the amount of precisely controlled movement involved quickly add up to repetitive strain injury on your hand/wrist. I've seen colleagues in their 20s/30s suffering from this problem, to a point that they needed to use the mouse with their other hand.

I'd recommend using the keyboard to navigate within a document. It's going to take some getting used to, but it'll be best for your hand health in the long run. Meanwhile, switching to a trackball (remember those?), a trackpad, or a trackpoint mouse, will definitely alleviate the symptoms.

Re: Framework Laptop 16

#279

Post by AlexDragusin »

nrp wrote: post #167
dakial1 wrote: post #87

I wonder if there is a market for a framework gaming laptop. Really hope there is. Also, on another note, I've read this engadget article about how other companies tried to build an upgradeable laptop and failed but I see Framework as a different kind of beast for one simple reason. This is their only value proposition, they don't have an alternative. In a very "Innovator's Dilemma" kind of. way, Dell and other big m…

We’ve been very deliberate about making this not a traditional gaming laptop, but a laptop that can be configured with enough performance to play intense games. You can configure it without the Graphics Module and have a high-performance 16” notebook with reconfigurable input and easy repairability and upgradeabilty.

Possibly this could work better with all that space? https://imgur.com/a/V0Ykw1D

Re: Framework Laptop 16

#280

Post by AlexDragusin »

causi wrote: post #214
nrp wrote: post #165

I’m happy to answer questions that folks have on this. There was also an earlier HN thread on our full launch event where we announced 13th Gen Intel Core and AMD Ryzen 7040 Series versions of the Framework Laptop 13, along with a bunch of other stuff: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35277660

Why are there still only tiny slivered arrow keys when the palm rest is so big you could park a car on it?

Indeed, all the space could be used to fit a keyboard in this manner very nicely https://imgur.com/a/V0Ykw1D and make this and any laptop immensely more usable.
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