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More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

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Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#271

Post by WarOnPrivacy »

Father of 5 (graduated) FL k-12 kids here. FL schools needed some things more than others.

- To reflect the actual economic reality of most FL kids, high schools needed less 4yr college prep and more trade/job prep. Being ready for years of employment is better than being ready for years of impossible or debt-laden college.

- A school year that ends on Halloween and begins after the new year. Kids are better off in A/C during our 13 month summers and outside during our 15min of not-summer (when all the holidays are going on).

- High schools that start after Elementary and Middle - to allow needed sleep (a FL rep just intro'd a bill for this!)

Instead FL kids got leveraged into a culture war that they never asked for - all so Gov can select parent rights.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#272

Post by lotsofpulp »

azinman2 wrote: post #187
lotsofpulp wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Keep in mind college is 4 years of education on a daily basis. For some, but for most, I bet it is a lot less. There are entire degrees (and schools) designed to require little more than for people to show up somewhere a few times per week.

What degrees and which schools?

Business/psychology/criminal justice/communications degrees are generally considered the go to for easy degrees where you just want the status of having a Bachelors degree.

For schools, any smaller private school charging $70k per year that is not in the top 10 or 20 probably fits the bill. They have a license to give rich foreigners a way to buy into the US, and I doubt rigorous education is their priority.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#273

Post by xyzelement »

patja wrote: post #266
xyzelement wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are referring to something on one hand very valuable, on the other hand it's very easy to graduate college without learning that, and I think colleges themselves in recent decades are pivoting away from. A hundred+ years ago when "almost nobody" went to college, college was a place for those hungry and willing to sacrifice for intellectual growth. Nowadays college is a baseline consumer good that "almost…

> Nowadays college is a baseline consumer good that "almost everyone" is expected to consume I think this depends quite a bit on your socioeconomic class. Overall in the US, only about 1/3 finish a college degree

You get the point I'm making though, right? :) If you want to sell your product to 33% percent of kids, your product has to be very easy to consume.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#274

Post by gersh »

azinman2 wrote: post #40
pclmulqdq wrote: post #26

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

It also grows the intellectual souls, exposing people to far more depth of thought. It also builds professional networks. If a person is smart enough to receive it, more education is almost always good. Of course money is a factor, and schools have gotten insanely expensive. I’m glad to hear that more people are finding alternative routes - it shouldn’t be that everyone needs college because quite frankly many career…

Are modern colleges actually succeeding: 1) Exposing people to depth of thought 2) Teach people how to think

Maybe, at one time they did, and maybe some schools still do, but it doesn't seem like most modern colleges are really doing this very well.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#275

Post by morelisp »

zoogeny wrote: post #268
morelisp wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I contend that "We have had free public libraries" is not a statement about the mere existence of a public library somewhere , but rather and especially in the context of this discussion a claim about how widely available resources for self-education are. And that's firmly the latter half of the 19th century, following efforts of people like Buckingham, Edwards, and Carnegie. And these are still not even close to uni…

> Perhaps unguided education is today not as accessible for everyone as it was for you, for many reasons. That is fair, I am too liberal with my hyperbole and so I'll try to be a bit more clear. It seems unlikely to me that an individual that has access to a guided university education does not also have access to freely available educational resources either online or in public libraries. That is, I do not believe t…

This statement:

There is literally nothing stopping a 20 year old human who lives in Western society from growing their intellectual soul through learning.

Is wildly different than:

I do not believe that a youth today that desires to "grow an intellectual soul" has the single recourse to enroll in the structured environments of universities.

> I have no idea how you clarifying or arguing over the precise duration of the availability of public libraries contributes to that discussion.

Sure, when you totally change what you're saying, it's not relevant anymore.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#276

Post by doomain »

I don't think most colleges make sense, except for the social life. I did my first university for the studies, and I didn't use any of it. Then I started a second one just for the parties and social life, and I hardly studied anything. The second one was much better...

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#277

Post by sammalloy »

mythrwy wrote: post #250
sergiomattei wrote: post #93

Honestly, what a disgrace. It’s almost like capitalism has an agenda to turn every living soul into a productive machine rather than a free-thinking, well-rounded individual. Education is meant to prepare you to think and live, not just prepare you to work. I’m glad I didn’t drop out in my first year to chase the Silicon Valley dream, because I’d be a much more manipulable, less capable individual if I did.

"Free thinking and well rounded" aren't things that seem to correspond with many current U.S college environments though. Colleges need to cost less. Much less. And they need to return to free inquiry with more education, and less administration and propaganda and fake studies low effort departments. Then what you say will be much more true and we will be in a better place.

> Colleges need to cost less. Much less.

Conservatives have waged a targeted attack on US education by shifting the federal and state tax burden to students. This began with Ronald Reagan and ended with the Koch network. Conservatives intentionally did this because they believe the traditional academic system in the US produces liberals and democrats. By shifting the tax burden to students, they have disincentivized free inquiry at the local level and supplanted it with corporate-sponsored job training which promotes hard right wing political and societal values.

Here is the supporting evidence:

https://starvingthebeast.net/documents/

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#278

Post by mtrower »

azinman2 wrote: post #200
anonuser123456 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It also grows the intellectual souls, exposing people to far more depth of thought. I am skeptical of this claim. In my experience, it just enshrines a different set of beliefs into students rather than new paradigms of critical thinking.

Then I don’t think where you went to school did a very good job of educating, or I’d suggest you didn’t pick up on what was being put down. For it to not provide critical thinking and/or depth of knowledge in a subject is a failed mission.

If so many people are reporting this experience, it may be time to re-evaluate the current state of education.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#279

Post by jackmott »

azinman2 wrote: post #40
pclmulqdq wrote: post #26

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

It also grows the intellectual souls, exposing people to far more depth of thought. It also builds professional networks. If a person is smart enough to receive it, more education is almost always good. Of course money is a factor, and schools have gotten insanely expensive. I’m glad to hear that more people are finding alternative routes - it shouldn’t be that everyone needs college because quite frankly many career…

[dead]

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#280

Post by irrational »

pclmulqdq wrote: post #26

College seems to have ~3 uses from students' perspectives: 1. A trade school for technical professionals who actually need specialist education (scientists, engineers, lawyers, doctors, etc.) 2. A finishing school for the elite 3. A blood sports arena for the brilliant to complete for professorships (almost all of whom will lose and be saddled with 6 figures of debt and 7 figures of opportunity cost) A lot of people…

I don’t know. I studied ancient history and historical linguistics in college. I managed to graduate with 23 years, but I don’t consider my time in college to be wasted at all. College introduced me to a much more diverse group of people. I got to interact with very smart people on a continuous basis which helped me to think more clearly, more logically, etc.
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