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Amazon employees push CEO Andy Jassy to drop return-to-office mandate

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Re: Amazon employees push CEO Andy Jassy to drop return-to-office mandate

#271

Post by User23 »

GauntletWizard wrote: post #32
User23 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm all for remote work in tech, but I also think it might be difficult to convince a court that "please come to work" is creating a hostile work environment.

Significant changes in job location absolutely do count. Forcing people to work from home would probably be enough to count, actually - If the employee objected. Forcing an employee who had promises about WFH availability to come into an office is going to be a slam dunk, for essentially zero gain - The damages will generally be too small to be worth it, at least in the US with at-will employment. But as a matter of…

Agreed on damages. It's been my limited experience that US lawyers won't even bother with such a case unless they think there is a very good chance of a jury awarding punitive damages. Which, practically speaking, is very rare and only happens in the most egregious of cases. I suppose it matters somewhat what the local jury pool is like, but generally if it isn't something absolutely flagrant and politically charged juries don't award punitive damages in these cases.

Re: Amazon employees push CEO Andy Jassy to drop return-to-office mandate

#272

Post by everforward »

celtain wrote: post #258
macinjosh wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It applies because Amazon itself, as well as its owners and likely executives of Amazon have personal financial interest in Seattle real estate and the downtown economy. This is the modern, more low key "company store".

I still don't understand the connection. I assume the term "company store" is being used to invoke the exploitative nature of living in a company town and being paid in scrip. How does "a major local employer wants the local economy to thrive" lead to more exploitation than usual? If anything, I'd expect a thriving local economy to mean that there's more competition for workers, increasing their bargaining power and…

The company store was a way to earn on both ends of employees; the company made money by paying the workers to do stuff for the company, and then earned a part of that money back by selling goods to the workers at exorbitant rates.

The parallel here is that Amazon makes money off of the workers doing work, and then can also extract value by using the workers to prop up their real estate holdings.

E.g. workers may benefit from lower property values (renters), but Amazon is forcing workers to prop up those property values. Amazon makes money off paying them, and makes (or saves) money when they force them to come spend money around their offices.

It's not exactly the same, but I think there's certainly similarities.

Re: Amazon employees push CEO Andy Jassy to drop return-to-office mandate

#273

Post by theonlybutlet »

kcplate wrote: post #269
theonlybutlet wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite what you think, a happy worker is a productive worker. Also people tend to look for meaning and purpose in their day to day job. Naturally they're going to be upset, when they're asked to do something that does not help them do the job, inconveniences their lives outside work and contradictorily goes against a fundamental principle of working, being productive.

The problem tech workers have in the the whole WFH vs RTO debate is that the worker is not arguing from a position of strength. There is a long history behind productive in office work for tech and a short history behind remote work for tech. Whatever productivity gains the worker perceives WFH gives them are either not measurable, not large enough to be noticed by the employer, or not worth other considerations and…

You make a good point, in a way it's a race to the bottom. The same could be said of any worker right that is not legally enshrined.

Re: Amazon employees push CEO Andy Jassy to drop return-to-office mandate

#275

Post by whoisthemachine »

whoisthemachine wrote: post #262
x86x87 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

haha. Because loyal == high performing. That is how it works. There is absolutely no way that high performing employees that can get a job by crossing the street will ever think about jumping ship because of the shitty manner they are treated.

They may not be after high performing right now, they may just want the ones who won't or can't cross the street.

Not to mention, most of these companies keep on saying there will be exceptions for exceptional employees in a clear attempt to still keep the high performing employees they like.

Re: Amazon employees push CEO Andy Jassy to drop return-to-office mandate

#276

Post by bradknowles »

ejvincent wrote: post #131
jonas21 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just to sit in a stuffy room and zoom Presumably, that's what the return to office plan is trying to fix. Right now, if you go into the office, you're spending a lot of time in zoom calls because half the people in every meeting aren't there. If everyone's in the office, you can just meet in person.

This is my personal take, given that I work at Amazon. Here's the landscape of people I interact with: * Supply Chain - Bellevue, Vancouver, Austin * AWS / other businesses - Seattle, occasionally elsewhere (NYC, Boston, HQ2) * Foreign business teams - Luxembourg (EU), occasionally elsewhere (India) * Team members on my team - Bellevue, Seattle, Vancouver, and elsewhere Tell me how we're going to get all of these gro…

I'm the only person from my team that works in the state of Texas. We have only one other person who works in the same timezone. We have others in Seattle and the DC area.

RTO might make sense for those in Seattle or the DC area, but not for anyone else. And we would all have to be on the same teleconference calls anyway, because we also work with a bunch of people on other teams at other places around the world.

There's no telling how this is going to work out. At least, not yet.

Re: Amazon employees push CEO Andy Jassy to drop return-to-office mandate

#277

Post by dhfbshfbu4u3 »

x86x87 wrote: post #270
dhfbshfbu4u3 wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the brain drain scenario is highly unlikely. Maybe before the bottom fell out on the stock price and maybe before the latest industry layoffs. But now? Most people will go back to the office.

Hah. People are not goldfish. They will remember and will jumo ship given a better opportunity. One does simply not forget the flexibility WFH brings.

I’m 52. I can assure you that most people are indeed goldfish. They may not forget the flexibility, but on a time series chart stability ranks much higher.

Re: Amazon employees push CEO Andy Jassy to drop return-to-office mandate

#278

Post by caoilte »

marcosdumay wrote: post #242
caoilte wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The FAANG key competitive advantage is cartel/monopoly status. Getting employees into the office is just middle management ego stroking, it won't actually help them. The degree to which they maintain market dominance over the next 5-10 years will depend on how well they time buying out startups which threaten their dominance (and which will no doubt be built by more productive WFH employees).

OH, but if employees competence is a large bottleneck for them to maintain that cartel/monopoly position. If they keep messing up with their people, not even buying all the correct startups will suffice. We may be just witnessing the beginning of their end.

IMO they're more likely to mess up their cartel/monopoly position by getting too greedy than by being unable to hire competent staff (see Doctorow's [enshittification cycle](https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/) for more).
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