I love building a startup in Rust but wouldn't pick it again • Hacker News Board

Re: I love building a startup in Rust but wouldn't pick it again

#271

Post by mixmastamyk » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 8:13 PM UTC

Yes, many times "typing supremacists" and pedantic folks will recommend this course of action but it is not a great idea much of the time as the piece illustrates. Getting things perfect on a code-level up front is rarely what a new project needs.

A more effective strategy for business is to instead prototype in something like Python—that's what it's for. This was known back in the 90s, and been somewhat forgotten. Django too. Like a flexible clay to rapidly sculpt to a first approximation. Then:

1) Get to product market fit, keep iterating until you do. Do not go to step 2 until that happens.

2) Get the fundamental data models right, get your fundamental software design right. Keep iterating until you do. Do not go to step 3 until that happens.

This stuff is easier in Python as it gets out of your way. Yes use pyflakes, a few tests, and a code formatter to keep you honest. But not much more that that. Pycharm for example, if you need a helping hand.

3) When step 1 and 2 are a looking good, then rebuild the foundation of your gleaming skyscraper with the steel girders of rust, java, and/or other bdsm languages with an already good product and design.

Step three may not even be needed if you have a CRUDdy project. Complete the typing at that time.

Re: I love building a startup in Rust but wouldn't pick it again

#272

Post by zozbot234 » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 8:15 PM UTC

WJW wrote: post #261

Animats wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If your answer is something like Go or Node.js, then Rust is probably not the right choice. If your answer is C or C++ or something similar, then Rust is very likely the right choice. I've been saying that for a while. If you're building web backends, Rust is not a good choice. Go is so much easier. The green thread system gets rid of the thread/async distinction, garbage collection means you don't have to obsess o…

There is probably a good space for Rust in writing the databases, caches and all sorts of proxies as well. I agree though, for most of the stuff I need for $DAYJOB the speed is nice but hardly required. It doesn't really matter if I can generate a HTTP response 50 microseconds quicker if the response then has to travel over the internet for 20+ milliseconds.

It does matter if you're using cloud autoscaling FaaS (previously known as CGI) and paying for those HTTP responses by the microsecond (and by RAM usage as well, which is also typically quite low in Rust).

Re: I love building a startup in Rust but wouldn't pick it again

#273

Post by KMag » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 8:15 PM UTC

Night_Thastus wrote: post #270

zeroxfe wrote: post #37

If you're thinking about building something in Rust, a good question to ask is, "what would I use if Rust didn't exist?" If your answer is something like Go or Node.js, then Rust is probably not the right choice. If your answer is C or C++ or something similar, then Rust is very likely the right choice. Obv, there are always exceptions here, but this helps you work through things a bit more objectively. Rust can be a…

I think it's dismissive and overly simplistic to say that Rust is almost always a better option than C or C++. They're different languages with different strengths. One strength of C++ is that it is far more established than rust - and that comes with a lot of advantages: * It has a larger number of people who know how to work with it * It has a huge catalog of established, fully functional libraries for everything y…

That's not the argument the GP is making. The GP is basically saying that if C/C++ aren't your second choice of language, then it's a sign your reasons for picking Rust are suspect.

They didn't say Rust is almost always better than C/C++.

There's perhaps the implication there, but it's certainly not explicit in the GP's comments.

Re: I love building a startup in Rust but wouldn't pick it again

#274

Post by bzzzt » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 8:16 PM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #247

oauea wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really, just do a rolling deployment like you should be doing anyway. No one cares if the new version takes 1 millisecond to start up or 3 seconds because they literally won't notice.

But 3 seconds isn't on the table. It is more like 20-30 seconds on a medium sized app and 8 seconds for a small one.

If your Java app takes half a minute to initialise it's the app's problem, not Java. Modern Java frameworks have moved from a dynamic deployment model to statically compiled and can start in milliseconds. (for example, see the benchmarks on https://quarkus.io/blog/runtime-performance/)

Re: I love building a startup in Rust but wouldn't pick it again

#275

Post by strokirk » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 8:17 PM UTC

ye-olde-sysrq wrote: post #200

brimstedt wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've really tried to give js/ts in backend a go. Both by nodejs and deno. And by kickstarting my own projects as well as diving into experienced nodejs developers' code. I really don't see how anyone choses nodejs/deno to anything. Java imo gives you much less trouble, is more stable, has a working (!!!) Unit testing setup and exceptional runtime. Next on my list is to give rust a go, since I'm intrigued by its featu…

"I really don't see how anyone choses nodejs/deno to anything." This is going to sound mean but I don't really know how to phrase it more nicely. People building backends in js/ts are doing so because either they, or a critical mass of the people they expect to code in it, don't know any better backend languages. I don't mean for this to be judge-y. People have different skillsets. A nodejs backend can be the right c…

Is there any statically typed HTML templating language, for non-node languages? Genuine question.

Re: I love building a startup in Rust but wouldn't pick it again

#276

Post by jjnoakes » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 8:24 PM UTC

zeroxfe wrote: post #37

If you're thinking about building something in Rust, a good question to ask is, "what would I use if Rust didn't exist?" If your answer is something like Go or Node.js, then Rust is probably not the right choice. If your answer is C or C++ or something similar, then Rust is very likely the right choice. Obv, there are always exceptions here, but this helps you work through things a bit more objectively. Rust can be a…

I love Rust but I am still looking for the perfect blend of the two camps.

One the one hand, Go/Node/Python/etc doesn't scratch my itch for the strong type system (sum types/tagged enums mostly) and on the other hand even though I like prototyping in Rust I really miss things like a REPL, more terse syntax, and a bit more expressiveness.

I think OCaml is closer to my ideal but the ecosystem isn't quite there. Maybe all it needs is time.

Re: I love building a startup in Rust but wouldn't pick it again

#277

Post by mike_hearn » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 8:25 PM UTC

pclmulqdq wrote: post #159

planede wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Exceptions have very high performance costs On the sad path. On the happy path they are faster than explicit error checking.

Kind of yes, and kind of no. On the happy path, if errors are very very rare, the check is also basically free thanks to branch prediction. They start to cost something when you start to add a higher frequency of errors, which incidentally is where exceptions cost a lot more.

The cost is higher because of all the branches that are scattered everywhere to check return codes. With exceptions there's a check at the place the error is thrown, but that's inevitable. There aren't checks scattered throughout the rest of the code, which would otherwise reduce icache utilization.

Re: I love building a startup in Rust but wouldn't pick it again

#278

Post by eYrKEC2 » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 8:26 PM UTC

We love using rust on the backend at https://mayhem4api.forallsecure.com/ and in our CLI. If I were the decider, I'd choose it again. Rust is a hurdle to learn, but the confidence you gain from the type system is fantastic. I've worked in other projects with different, looser-type'd languages (no names! no flames!) and despite good testing coverage, the confidence on release to prod is not as high.

Re: I love building a startup in Rust but wouldn't pick it again

#279

Post by AceJohnny2 » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 8:26 PM UTC

> Perf is easy when you have AWS credits.

I get that the point of this article is that launching > sustaining.

But I have a horror story about AWS credits for startups: a friend's startup got their account suspended for a couple days when their Credits ran out, they started getting billed 5 digits (as they expected), and Amazon's fraud detection detected this as an anomalous billing pattern and suspended them! For transitioning from AWS credits to billing!?

Considering all their operations were running in AWS, and they were providing a HW-critical service to their customers, it was bad.

This was late last year. This was despite getting reassurances from their AWS rep that the transition would be smooth.

Re: I love building a startup in Rust but wouldn't pick it again

#280

Post by baby » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 8:27 PM UTC

jjnoakes wrote: post #276

zeroxfe wrote: post #37

If you're thinking about building something in Rust, a good question to ask is, "what would I use if Rust didn't exist?" If your answer is something like Go or Node.js, then Rust is probably not the right choice. If your answer is C or C++ or something similar, then Rust is very likely the right choice. Obv, there are always exceptions here, but this helps you work through things a bit more objectively. Rust can be a…

I love Rust but I am still looking for the perfect blend of the two camps. One the one hand, Go/Node/Python/etc doesn't scratch my itch for the strong type system (sum types/tagged enums mostly) and on the other hand even though I like prototyping in Rust I really miss things like a REPL, more terse syntax, and a bit more expressiveness. I think OCaml is closer to my ideal but the ecosystem isn't quite there. Maybe a…

Yeah I would have recommended OCaml, the language seriously need more developers to contribute to the ecosystem. It could be much nicer.