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Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

economist.com

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Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#271

Post by preseinger »

flavius29663 wrote: post #173
preseinger wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is there any difference in outcome between those two numbers? like are you gonna do one thing if it's 0% and another thing if it's 0.001%? no.

I think for most people it isn't, but only if you tell them the truth. If you gaslight them and say they are 100% safe, then you will get a much higher percentage of people losing trust and not taking the vaccine anymore.

look, like, vaccines are basically one of the greatest accomplishments of humankind, this assertion is pretty obvious from any reasonable review of the relevant science and/or facts of the stuff, and so it's difficult to take seriously anyone who comes to a different conclusion

like, if someone would believe you if you told them a vaccine is 99.9% safe, but would refuse to take that vaccine if you told them it was 100% safe? that person is not a rational actor, I'm not sure that they're anyone worth worrying about

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#272

Post by somat »

dmd wrote: post #38
mschuster91 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like workplace safety rules, they are written in the blood of the dead. Or fire codes. Related off-topic reminder, in the hope it may save one life one day: please use this comment as a reminder to check upon the status of your smoke alarms, carbon monoxide alarms and fire extinguisher. At the very least every room where people sleep in should have a smoke alarm and every room with a furnace (boiler, oven, kitchen,…

> Fire extinguishers should be inspected by a licensed professional every two years I (in an affluent US east coast suburb) called my fire dept's non-emergency line to ask about this once a few years ago, and they told me this isn't something they do. So who does it?

Once a year grab your oldest fire extinguisher and least proficient family member and hold a live fire(literally) training exercise.

It helps a bunch in an emergency when you are not preforming a technical operation for the very first time.

I will concede this may be tricky to pull off in a more urban environment, "Yes officer that's the idiot who lit his garbage can on fire in the middle of the street", in which case do without the fire, or make friends with the local fire department and they will let you do it in their parking lot.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#273

Post by dmd »

somat wrote: post #272
dmd wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fire extinguishers should be inspected by a licensed professional every two years I (in an affluent US east coast suburb) called my fire dept's non-emergency line to ask about this once a few years ago, and they told me this isn't something they do. So who does it?

Once a year grab your oldest fire extinguisher and least proficient family member and hold a live fire(literally) training exercise. It helps a bunch in an emergency when you are not preforming a technical operation for the very first time. I will concede this may be tricky to pull off in a more urban environment, "Yes officer that's the idiot who lit his garbage can on fire in the middle of the street", in which cas…

Yep that's the plan - I just bought new ones to replace mine and we're gonna do that with the kids.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#274

Post by fragmede »

Symbiote wrote: post #236
mcguire wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This the same UK that had a scandal a while back about a high-rise fire caused by idiotic external cladding materials? :-)

If breaking the regulations leads to prison for those responsible, it's working as best as it can. (Legal cases, inquests etc continue.)

Prison time won't bring back any of the 72 people that died.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#275

Post by mhb »

mcguire wrote: post #228
mhb wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are people who are killed or hurt by overzealous code who you don't know about.

Can you name some?

There are finite resources. Resources used to comply with overzealous regulations are not spent in other ways. Some of these other ways save lives. Pick whichever ones you want - additional smoke detectors, pollution reduction, etc., etc.

It's ridiculous to advocate arbitrary, putative, safety enhancing measures without an argument about why that way of spending resources is better than many of the other alternatives.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#276

Post by MichaelZuo »

adventured wrote: post #256
ornornor wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that this is the exception is so sad. I don’t know how our species made it so far in spite of its own nature. I can’t imagine how much pressure and intimidation this mayor suffered to refuse bribes from (probably very) well resourced and connected individuals/cartels.

> I don’t know how our species made it so far in spite of its own nature. You're probably overestimating the representation of corruption among individuals. It's rare, not common; which is also why it upsets most everyone (if it were actually the common, it wouldn't upset so). Obviously it can also be more common in some places than others, depending on context. And it's a percentage tax - a friction - on progress, n…

> (if it were actually the common, it wouldn't upset so)

Mortality is universal yet it manages to upset everyone some of the time.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#277

Post by fragmede »

mhb wrote: post #275
mcguire wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you name some?

There are finite resources. Resources used to comply with overzealous regulations are not spent in other ways. Some of these other ways save lives. Pick whichever ones you want - additional smoke detectors, pollution reduction, etc., etc. It's ridiculous to advocate arbitrary, putative, safety enhancing measures without an argument about why that way of spending resources is better than many of the other alternatives…

In absence of "overzealous" regulation, a property developer could use some of the money they were going to spend on the job on, say, additional smoke detectors to make the place safer, but given NO requirements to spend money on something like smoke detectors, and that fact that it isn't their home or office they're working on, it seems far more likely excess money would go to other things. Like a bigger truck, video games, a sports car, trips to Europe/America/Asia, alcohol, cocaine, strippers (women who take their clothes off for money, not the work tool used to separate wire from insulation). Which are all things that one could choose to do with their own money, but I'd rather that regulations cause the money to go towards making houses safer so they don't burn down, or fail in an earthquake/tornado/hurricane/winter and kill somebody.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#278

Post by bombcar »

_greim_ wrote: post #198
toast0 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist. > Like workplace safety rules, they are written in the blood of the dead. Some of the rules are, but some of the rules aren't. When code calls for a maximum distance between…

> When code calls for a maximum distance between electrical outlets, that's partially for convenience, and partly because of unsafe practices with extension cords, so there's some blood there, but if you miss the mark by a foot, it's not disasterous. I mean, it could be disastrous, couldn't it? That foot could be the threshold of someone saying "Aw screw it, I'll just use my parent's frayed extension cord from the 70…

Where I roughly draw the line is where the user was stupid. People should know not to be dangerous with extension cords; but there's no way a user should be required to know that the fifth outlet box on the left side actually has no box and that if you were to pull out something plugged into it the whole outlet would come out of the wall and short to a water line.

And perhaps this kind of thing should be more explicit in the code - things that are for convenience and things that are actual life/death safety issues.

And as we see, the latter often involves things that only become apparent when disaster strikes.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#279

Post by bombcar »

flavius29663 wrote: post #105
marcosdumay wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the code is always overzealous (never met an exception), and the smaller the house the more overzealous it is. If it wasn't, we would have a much easier time persecuting people that breaks it, and much more public sympathy for large culprits that actually have much fewer (relatively to their capacity) strings over then than any random person. The same applies to fire codes.

> The same applies to fire codes. As someone who has been close to almost-tragedies caused by fires, can you give me examples where fire codes are over-zealous? I've had family almost getting killed, even though they did follow the fire codes - the didn't even get a fine or a case against them. If you ask me, the fire codes were not strict enough in that instance.

The only one I can think of is the fire codes that require you to add a full sprinkler system to an existing house if you do any modifications to it.

Which means you do nothing and have no sprinklers.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#280

Post by netsharc »

Oarch wrote: post #57
andoma wrote: post #25

> In nearby Erzin county, however, not a single building collapsed. The local mayor and his predecessor told local media that they did not allow any illegal construction. Both used the same phrase: “My conscience is clear.” That mayor, Ökkeş Elmasoğlu, should perhaps run for president.

Take a look at what happened to Ekrem Imamoglu recently.

I can't help but think that Erdogan's team is already looking for dirt on Ökkeş Elmasoğlu just because Ökkeş just made Erdogan look really bad.
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