Effective altruism has a sexual harassment problem, women say • Hacker News Board

Re: Effective altruism has a sexual harassment problem, women say

#271

Post by naasking » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 6:37 AM UTC

yamtaddle wrote: post #58

gruez wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's not that that bothers me so much as the fact that many effective altruists do it so badly. [...] But effective altruists are as likely to talk about colonizing Mars as they are to talk about global warming. Are they doing it badly, or are you not understanding their arguments? AFAIK effective altruists want to colonize mars on x-risk grounds, which would explain why they want to prioritize that over global warm…

I've yet to see an argument for colonizing Mars for this purpose, that wouldn't be a better argument if the goal were instead "build robust, distributed bunkers on earth, and pay families to live in them part-time so there's always someone there". Cheaper, and more effective. Most plausible post-apocalyptic Earths would be far easier to live on than Mars. The remaining threats that wouldn't also be pretty likely to t…

> Most plausible post-apocalyptic Earths would be far easier to live on than Mars.

Most, but not all right? So then you agree that there is still a case for colonies on other worlds, if only to cover those less plausible scenarios.

Re: Effective altruism has a sexual harassment problem, women say

#272

Post by naasking » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 6:39 AM UTC

walleeee wrote: post #95

yamtaddle wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've yet to see an argument for colonizing Mars for this purpose, that wouldn't be a better argument if the goal were instead "build robust, distributed bunkers on earth, and pay families to live in them part-time so there's always someone there". Cheaper, and more effective. Most plausible post-apocalyptic Earths would be far easier to live on than Mars. The remaining threats that wouldn't also be pretty likely to t…

> Most plausible post-apocalyptic Earths would be far easier to live on than Mars. thank you how are we supposed to build a second home on a dead, ruthlessly hostile planet until we demonstrate ourselves capable of stabilizing the biosphere and building a sustainable long-term civilization here Earth is easy mode compared to Mars

> sustainable long-term civilization here Earth is easy mode compared to Mars

Which is easier, building a colony on Mars or solving politics? I rest my case. Mars, here we come!

Re: Effective altruism has a sexual harassment problem, women say

#273

Post by naasking » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 6:43 AM UTC

freejazz wrote: post #71

gruez wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's not that that bothers me so much as the fact that many effective altruists do it so badly. [...] But effective altruists are as likely to talk about colonizing Mars as they are to talk about global warming. Are they doing it badly, or are you not understanding their arguments? AFAIK effective altruists want to colonize mars on x-risk grounds, which would explain why they want to prioritize that over global warm…

>Are they doing it badly, or are you not understanding their arguments? Do YOU not understand their arguments? They are facially stupid. The notion that we should be colonizing mars because of global warming is the stupidest thing I've ever read or heard.

> The notion that we should be colonizing mars because of global warming is the stupidest thing I've ever read or heard.

Right, so you don't understand their arguments then, thanks for clearing that up. Global warming is only an additional reason, not the only or main reason.

Re: Effective altruism has a sexual harassment problem, women say

#274

Post by naasking » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 6:50 AM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #70

gruez wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, but how does this translate into actionable advice? Nobody sets out to intentionally deceive themselves. Telling people that "we should not deceive ourselves" is basically as helpful as "don't be wrong".

How about this: in swinger communities, they have safe words that they can use to transcend the playtime aspect of reality - how about we develop something similar for internet arguments, a term that is mutually agreed upon in advance , and when uttered by a participant it kicks off a well documented (and agreed upon) protocol where all participants downgrade System 1 thinking to zero and upgrade System 2 thinking to…

> how about we develop something similar for internet arguments, a term that is mutually agreed upon in advance, and when uttered by a participant it kicks off a well documented (and agreed upon) protocol where all participants downgrade System 1 thinking to zero and upgrade System 2 thinking to 11

This used to be Godwin's law. Except by the time that's triggered, your System 2 thinking dialed you to 11 almost always tells everyone it's time to leave that discussion.

Re: Effective altruism has a sexual harassment problem, women say

#275

Post by marc_abonce » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 7:09 AM UTC

TIL a woman even committed suicide as a result of her experiences with sexual harassment in the Effective Altruism groups she was on, according to her suicide note. [1]

[1] Kathy Forth's suicide note: https://medium.com/@itai.ilyich/if-i-cant-have-me-no-one-can...

Re: Effective altruism has a sexual harassment problem, women say

#276

Post by aj7 » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 7:13 AM UTC

scarmig wrote: post #109

teraflop wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm reminded of a fascinating series of Reddit threads, starting back in 2009, from somebody who convinced himself he "could handle anything once" and decided to try heroin, only to rapidly spiral out of control: https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/wef6...

The issue with Reddit is that the story is as likely as not to be fake. Particularly, here, I don't think people are at risk of serious withdrawal after only two weeks of heroin use. Though heroin use is obviously one of the dumbest things anyone can do.

I had serious withdrawal symptoms 24 hours after medicating myself with controlled doses of hydromorphone after surgery. It’s always been remarkable to me how many people confidently assert I wasn’t addicted.

Re: Effective altruism has a sexual harassment problem, women say

#277

Post by kstenerud » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 7:16 AM UTC

I've been around long enough to see this kind of thing time and time again. I still remember my father getting involved with the local "Technocracy" movement, which is as kooky and self-serving as you'd expect from the name (but hey, it was the 90s).

Any time someone offers a simple solution or philosophy to solve complex problems, that should be the first giant red flag that they're full of shit and wishful thinking, with self-serving deception just around the corner.

Re: Effective altruism has a sexual harassment problem, women say

#278

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 7:39 AM UTC

jojobas wrote: post #253

camillomiller wrote: post #205

EA can be the scum of Earth and I wouldn’t be surprised that this kind of group could be as it sounds cultish and self-aggrandizing. But conflating their wrongdoings right away with the refusal of monogamy and the practice of polyamory is so annoying and conservative and plainly wrong. It also implies that these practices are one step removed from harassment, which is infuriating. It’s exactly like conflating homosex…

In fact male homosexuals are about 1̶0̶x̶ 2x more likely to be pedophiles than heterosexuals. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1556756/

[deleted]

Re: Effective altruism has a sexual harassment problem, women say

#279

Post by jancsika » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 7:51 AM UTC

derbOac wrote: post #126

supersour wrote: post #48

> EA is diffuse and deliberately amorphous; anybody who wants to can call themselves an EA... But with no official leadership structure, no roster of who is and isn’t in the movement, and no formal process for dealing with complaints, Wise argues, it’s hard to gauge how common such issues are within EA compared to broader society. This passage reminded me of this article: https://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm…

This is an aside, but although I agree that groups without formal power structures can hide real ones, I'm not sure explicit hierarchies are necessarily better. In my experience, they can be used to legitimize shadow hierarchies or corruption, which sometimes makes the problems worse. Those vague power structures exist with or without formal ones; when they coincide it's good, but when they don't, it can perpetuate o…

> In my experience, they can be used to legitimize shadow hierarchies or corruption, which sometimes makes the problems worse.

At least in your day-to-day formal hierarchies, those who are negatively affected by the shadow hierarchy don't have anything to lose by acknowledging that it is indeed a power structure. If Alice is the boss but Bob is the one really running all the things, none of Alice's employees are going to lose any sleep by acknowledging the truth of the situation.

But in communities that claim to be non-hierarchical, coming to terms with the existence of a shadow hierarchy could constitute an existential crisis. This isn't a logical necessity-- e.g., members could simply notice and just shrug it off. But most groups I've come into contact with that claim to be non-hierarchical assign great positive value to it, and they get defensive or squirrely about any attempts to uncover hidden power structures within.

Re: Effective altruism has a sexual harassment problem, women say

#280

Post by ben_w » Sat, Feb 04, 2023, 8:32 AM UTC

seti0Cha wrote: post #201

ben_w wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I don't expect extinction from any particular given cause — and definitely not from any of global warming, nuclear war, loss of biodiversity, peak phosphorous, or the ozone layer — humans have a few massive failure modes: 1. We refuse to believe very bad scenarios until much too late. Doesn't need to be apocalyptic: The Titanic isn't sinking; all of Hiroshima must have gone silent because a telegraph cable was…

My money is on the quiet failure mode. The demographic collapses we see happening around the world continue and spread as more people have the resources to live individually, without family. Through automation we overcome the economic issues caused by population inversion, leisure is the norm, ambitions are confined to personal goals, and the human species coasts comfortably down to nothing.

I think that direction will rapidly lead to people of the "Quiverfull" attitude (not necessarily literally in the Christian group of that name) becoming dominant.