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The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

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Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#271
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Book may have been on the front page last week but I assure you very very few people in the US have insulation above and below their foundations or incredibly air tight houses.

I rather think our house is pretty optimal for this given where we live. Slab on grade in socal, where AC is more of a concern than heating.

In Southern California I guess you don’t need heat at all, right? Apparently it only gets down to 42F over there so the pipes won’t even get hurt, let alone the people, who have built in thermoregulation.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> made the required rent higher If, all along, you could have rented it out for more money ... why were you planning to rent it out for less money? I get that you wouldn't have to, but it appears that the "market rate rent" was higher than you initially anticipated. As a corollary, assuming that you had initially planned on the highest rent that the market would bear...it seems that after a year of unexpected delays…

Your comment only makes sense if you ignore the rest of the sentence you quoted. "It also made the required rent higher to recoup those costs and try to be profitable (that deal will lose money)." required rent =/= planned rent =/= actual rent Higher costs than expected can easily cause a project that would be profitable to be a loss.

To be fair, GP has a point: unexpected expenses and delays in construction represent sunk costs, and don't matter with respect to maximising profits, as the landlord should pick the price which maximises profits with respect to whatever the operating costs of the apartment are, without considering the cost of construction.

However, as sibling comments to yours mentioned, there are flaws to this perspective:

- You can make the apartments 'better' and charge a premium on top of whatever the better appliances cost. So if that raises operating costs by $100/unit month, raise rent by $200/unit month.

- Real life doesn't always map perfectly onto microeconomic theory. In particular, discovering the profit-maximising price is tricky. However, I would still argue that the landlord would rationally still pick whatever they would assume the profit-maximising price would be.

- Since everyone else is probably facing delays and cost overruns, probably not as much construction is getting done as might have been assumed, therefore the landlord faces less competition than anticipated and can raise rent higher than expected without losing too many prospective tenants.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Upping the codes to require new construction to have those things, while not razing your parents' house, shows it's all about the pyramid scheme and not about actual safety. If it were about actual safety and such things are considered unsafe then unsafe houses like your parents home should be bulldozed for the good of the people.

I think it shows that there's at least a basic cost-benefit analysis taking place, where things that we've learned provide a safety benefit that can be added at minimal cost during construction are required, but bulldozing a house because it will burn down 15 minutes faster doesn't pencil out.

And yet if I built a new house against code they would still make me go back and fix it, even though I could make the exact argument you made about the old house not penciling out to go back and make them fix it.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#274

CRE guy here. A lot of this "productivity loss" is also due to government related staffing issues and bureaucracy. Most people are describing more complex building codes, so I'll add something new. I had a project that was delayed by over a year during Covid because the city approved incorrect plans, came back and requested revisions, and then lost the physical plans (without us knowing until we checked in asking wha…

IIRC, during Covid there were only something like half a dozen elevator inspections for the entire state of CA. The source below says there was 15 in 2019. If your elevator inspection is 2 months late... guess what, your project is going to be late.

I couldn't believe this is true, so I actually read the article. Turns out, it's not true. It's multiple orders of magnitude off.

There were 15 inspectors for the city (not county) of LA when this article was written:

"In order to be up to code, each of the 20,974 elevators in the city of Los Angeles needs to be checked once a year.

But there are only 15 inspectors to do it."

Roughly half of the elevators were past due, which means they were inspecting 10k+ elevators per year just in the city of LA, let alone the entire state.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Upping the codes to require new construction to have those things, while not razing your parents' house, shows it's all about the pyramid scheme and not about actual safety. If it were about actual safety and such things are considered unsafe then unsafe houses like your parents home should be bulldozed for the good of the people.

By your logic every single house in Florida (and those along the Gulf and Atlantic coasts that are in the path of possible hurricanes) that was built prior to 2002 (the year the building codes were changed in direct response to Hurricane Andrew in 1992) needs to be razed. I'm not sure that's really politically feasible...

[deleted]

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#276
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can: - Vinyl windows compared to old growth wood windows from 100 years ago. - Vinyl siding compared to cedar shakes. - Extremely poor wood quality in the lower end 2x4 and 2x6 lumber. - Sheathing that's essentially cardboard in really cheap builds. - Flooring is sad today in cheap to moderate homes. Thing is there were really badly built homes 100 years ago and they just aren't standing any longer. We do get a but…

> You can build an awesome home today out of excellent materials like engineered wood, high quality OSB/ply/ZipSystem, and of course whatever you want to spend on flooring, siding, windows, etc. Of course, there will always be different quality materials available at different prices. But I would bet the lowest quality house with the lowest quality materials and build quality 100 years ago is much worse than the same…

Why stop there? Get particle board cabinets, molded composite doors, vinyl windows, laminate counters, etc. Yeah it's all going to look awful in about 2 years but you can just replace it with more cheap junk.

I get it, everyone has different tastes and budgets, and values. to me, wood floors feel nice, they look nice, and they sound nice when walked on. Laminate flooring clicks and areas that get walked on just a bit more begin to wear out and begin to lose their printed finish.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better keep that copper out of exterior walls. It doesn't stretch and rebound like PEX when the water freezes. Those who care about homeopathy can run their drinking water through a loop of copper.

copper does have pretty well documented anti bacterial properties. there's a reason that lots of iuds are made of copper.

AFAIK the effect is also significant enough that using copper on public high-touch surfaces (doorknobs or push plates, hand rails) can meaningfully decrease disease transmission rates.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Affordable housing is just a zoning issue. The cost of construction is a tiny fraction of the cost of a new house in major metros. The cake you can't have and eat at the same time is: "I want affordable housing" and "I want my house to be a good investment."

That's not even remotely true. Cost of construction is typically 60 to 80% of the cost. In high cost of living areas land is more expensive but so are construction costs.

I said "in major metros" - as I shared in a peer comment in SF (the highest construction costs in the world) it's about 40% and in San Mateo it's like 15-30% depending on finish.

Outside of major metros, zoning makes houses much bigger, twice as big on average as the 70s.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By your logic every single house in Florida (and those along the Gulf and Atlantic coasts that are in the path of possible hurricanes) that was built prior to 2002 (the year the building codes were changed in direct response to Hurricane Andrew in 1992) needs to be razed. I'm not sure that's really politically feasible...

My logic is the entitled fucks that vote for this policy should be made to eat their own medicine. Either it's OK to have a house without the safety criteria in the code, or it isn't. Forcing them to eat their own medicine would allow the youth to also have the chance to build a house, even if it's not perfectly safe, closer to the cost their parents had to spend. Rather than changing the game and screwing over new e…

By the same logic, all the houses built in the earthquake zones of San Francisco and LA should also be raised.

I've noticed that there has been mass hysteria in some California-centric websites that flood insurance must be provided by the Federal government in Florida, but not that earthquake insurance must be provided by the Federal government in California.

Botton line, the private sector doesn't handle this type of correlated risk well, and somehow picking on Florida when California does the same thing is pretty weird. We know there will be a big earthquake that will level a lot of property in California just we know there will be a big flood in Florida. Yet "entitled fucks" keep choosing to live in these states. Life goes on.

Re: The strange and awful path of productivity in the US construction sector

#280
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My logic is the entitled fucks that vote for this policy should be made to eat their own medicine. Either it's OK to have a house without the safety criteria in the code, or it isn't. Forcing them to eat their own medicine would allow the youth to also have the chance to build a house, even if it's not perfectly safe, closer to the cost their parents had to spend. Rather than changing the game and screwing over new e…

By the same logic, all the houses built in the earthquake zones of San Francisco and LA should also be raised. I've noticed that there has been mass hysteria in some California-centric websites that flood insurance must be provided by the Federal government in Florida, but not that earthquake insurance must be provided by the Federal government in California. Botton line, the private sector doesn't handle this type o…

My point was that if voters had to eat their own medicine they wouldn't encumber new entrants to rules they themselves are immune to. I didn't seriously think they would vote to raze their own (previously immune) houses.
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