Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are Passkeys exportable and re-importable by another service, site, or system? I am strongly opposed to any authentication system that makes my authorization workflow for unrelated third-party sites dependent on any company whose terms of service allow them to suspend or terminate my use without reasonable recourse or recovery. Passwords have problems, but I can print them out on a piece of paper in a fire safe.
You own your own passkeys on your own device, ultimately. Google/Apple/MS have no ownership or knowledge of the actual keys.
Bitwarden Acquires Passwordless.dev
271–280 of 399 posts
Re: Bitwarden Acquires Passwordless.dev
#272Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Yes, according to what 1Password is telling us. But as we've seen, what these companies say and what they actually do in practice are not always aligned. That's just not accurate: 1. First off, all the encryption happens client-side. It is possible for anyone so inclined to validate how 1P and LP are doing their encryption. 2. The deficiencies in LP's encryption approach were well known for years. My point it, yes,…
1Password's client side encryption is occurring within it's proprietary, closed-source product, so I'm not sure how the end to end process can be completely validated. With respect to your confidence in 1Password's code and encryption methodology, would you be willing to send me your 1Password vault so that I can have a look at it?
It's Javascript running in a browser.
> With respect to your confidence in 1Password's code and encryption methodology, would you be willing to send me your 1Password vault so that I can have a look at it?
Yes, absolutely (note I don't actually know how to get the encrypted version of the vault standalone). Are you willing to send banking information over HTTPS? It's the same level of security.
Re: Bitwarden Acquires Passwordless.dev
#273I really dislike the idea of giving complete access to my digital life to any company, particularly one that needs to grow quickly. The tech for password vaults is so simple, I use keepass + icloud syncing and get free end-to-end encrypted password syncing, without sharing any data with anyone. Outlined in more detail here: https://magoop.substack.com/p/how-to-manage-500-passwords-se...
Do you have a browser extension that offers username/password autofill using keepass as datasource or do you alttab copypaste / rely on a program made by someone else to clear your clipboard?
Re: Bitwarden Acquires Passwordless.dev
#274Earlier quoted context omitted.
The entire finance industry has a disdain for "lifestyle businesses", that just generate enough profits for the founders and employees to live on, but will never generate an exit beyond that. I get why, but for utility products, a solid lifestyle for the employees and a useful product for users is enough, and should be enough.
Lifestyle businesses have a big flaw in American culture though; our safety net is not enough to make "meets expenses" a tenable long-term approach. We basically have to aim for a big wad of savings for later in life, which incentivizes going for exits and cash-outs.
Re: Bitwarden Acquires Passwordless.dev
#275As a recent convert to Bitwarden from LastPass, I start to get a bit nervous when I see acquisitions happening. LastPass getting acquired was the beginning of the end for it, IMO, before stagnating into criminal negligence. Granted this is Bitwarden acquiring rather than being acquired, but I still worry it leads to a trend of building "portfolio value" rather than focusing on the product. I sincerely hope I'm wrong.
I can say with certainty that I’ve continued to get value out of 1Password both personally and professionally. I can even say with a degree of certainty that I’ve gotten value out of the changes that have come post-acquisition. Were I starting from scratch, I’d still probably pick 1Password. This isn’t me arguing that 1Password is better. More saying that it’s been a…little bit of time now, and I’m still happy with the product and how it’s improved.
I appreciate that acquisitions or taking on funding feels like more of a kick in the teeth because it’s a distinct event, is publicised, and even publicised as a good thing. Having just gone through my first acquisition (as an employee in an entirely bootstrapped small business) I’ve realised that this has to be weighed up against the risks associated with whatever was in the no-funding no-acquisition future, i.e. the thing just going away entirely, which happens slowly (and then all at once) and mostly in private.
I’ve little doubt that over time 1Password will get comparatively worse than whatever else is around. Either because it’s neglected or because it gets juiced and dark patterned by VC incentives. Ignoring the VC bit, I’m just as sure the same will still happen to Bitwarden obviously. But this shifting playing field just feels like an inevitability regardless of which path any product takes.
Re: Bitwarden Acquires Passwordless.dev
#276Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ah for fuck's sake. It keeps happening to all the software I love. I guess I'll have to stop relying on convenience (I was a 1Password user years ago) and go 100% open-source. None of the libre offerings seem to be as convenient and polished, but at least they're not into some VC's pocket ready to squeeze as much profit as possible out of my paid membership. What's a good OSS alternative that works with iOS and Linux…
In your opinion, what would the ideal password management business model be? A non-profit like Signal? (Not rhetorical, actually curious what people want here.) As a thought experiment, let's say there are 1000 people who get annoyed when a software product they use takes VC funding. For those 1000 people to sustain a software product with a team of 5 for 10 years at 150k average per head. you'd need 7.5MM dollars ju…
That being said: it's unclear if anyone really understands how to build an open source product with cloud hosting covering the bills. Almost everyone either makes a deal with the devil (VC funding) or upsells too aggressively anyway.
Cloud storage and CPU usage is basically negligible per-user for a password manager. I imagine you could service hundreds of millions of users on just a couple of capable machines, similar to HN's setup. Even with hundreds of passwords, most users total mere MB's of usage -- it's even simpler than email! I think this is one of the rare cases where corporate users can pay for big accounts with special sharing features and completely subsidize a free product for individual users. Or you could charge individual users $5 a year to cover cloud costs (more than enough), with self-hosting as an option for highly technical users to save a buck.
Re: Bitwarden Acquires Passwordless.dev
#277Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ah for fuck's sake. It keeps happening to all the software I love. I guess I'll have to stop relying on convenience (I was a 1Password user years ago) and go 100% open-source. None of the libre offerings seem to be as convenient and polished, but at least they're not into some VC's pocket ready to squeeze as much profit as possible out of my paid membership. What's a good OSS alternative that works with iOS and Linux…
I haven't seen, but would love to, a tech startup that is guaranteed not to sell out. I don't mean a promise from the founder on a blog, but a legal structure. I'm not sure what what form this would take or if it's such anathema that it could never be but it would be great to see. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's tired of the bait-amd-switch of companies who are all about freedom until they get acquired by a giant…
Customers are members/owners.
Examples: Tessitura, NISC
Re: Bitwarden Acquires Passwordless.dev
#278Earlier quoted context omitted.
It should start to happen automatically. Apple, Google, and Microsoft have all stated the goal that they are hoping for deep inter-operation across all of a user's devices, regardless of ecosystem. If you are truly paranoid that your major device accounts are subject to termination without recourse (which if that happens you generally have lots of other problems and should maybe cause you to rethink your other trust…
> It should start to happen automatically. Apple, Google, and Microsoft have all stated the goal that they are hoping for deep inter-operation across all of a user's devices, regardless of ecosystem. If this is the case, then maybe there will be some solution through Google Takeout. Apple and MS seem less interested in this, but if one of them can generate an export, I can see services appearing that can work with th…
So far as I'm aware none of them are planning key exports any time soon. Keeping keys to the various secure enclaves of user's devices is a key part of the security footprint they are trying to establish. That's why multi-key enrollment is the base case in all Passkey systems: recovery, multi-device support, etc all hinge on continuously expiring old keys and auto-enrolling new ones. There's no export, and cloud backups aren't "backups" but different, Vendor escrowed keys (often themselves in hardware cloud secure enclaves that cannot be exported, only new keys added to keychains) and ways to attest for (sign) new keys in recovery situations.
As I said way above, the theory is that enrolling all of your devices and all of your top-level recovery accounts will be easy and convenient enough on every website, not just your bank (given how many banks still don't even support proper TOTP, hopefully better than some banks today), and enough so that everyone does it by habit. I agree, there's huge practical risks that someone gets it wrong and there's all sorts of ways what should be easy turns into complicated soup that never works right. That's the brief glimmer of hope here offered by the Big 3 alliance on this and making it a major marketing endeavor. They've put a lot on the line for this.
> This....or I can stick with passwords, print them out annually and put them in my fire safe. The KISS principle works here, and I can't imagine a non-techie person who works in a socially-risky field being able to do so.
The hope is that with the Big 3 all in agreement here on passwords needing to be entirely replaced and the only way that happens is if what replaces them is as easy and uncomplicated as possible for non-technical to use every day, Passkeys will see strong implementations everywhere and that cross-vendor multi-device interop will be strong enough for everyone to rely on (even if you distrust one or all three of the Big 3).
> Complaints by users who have Big 3 cloud accounts closed for unspecified "violations" are common enough to make it a concern. I take other protections against something like this, but I absolutely do consider it a risk
I consider it a risk too, but as with all things security every risk needs to be evaluated within the template of a larger threat model. Email is already the de facto chokepoint for recovery of almost any account (and passkeys don't necessarily change that, "Forgot Password" flows still probably exist in passkey worlds, just differently). You have a ton of eggs in whatever basket is your email provider (and for the majority of people often one of the Big 3). Phones are already the de facto chokepoint for account access (whether because of TOTP or single ecosystem "apps" or all sorts of other lock in mechanics). Passkeys don't substantially change these existing deep trust relationships (and weren't really designed too), most people in most threat models the amount they are trusting their various relationships with the Big 3 doesn't substantially shift with a switch to Passkeys. (For good and bad. Absolutely some people are underestimating exactly how much they trust one vendor or another and how much they have to lose if their account is suspended for any reason without warning or easy recourse.) (Your threat model is your own and will vary, of course.)
On top of that, other vendors will be playing ball in this space. Mozilla isn't a direct part of the "Passkey Alliance" but has stated their interest in Passkeys and cross-platform/cross-device interoperability. There will be more, too, over time. Possibly enough paranoid people will roll their own that good self-hosting and open source options will roll out eventually, even if most people won't use them and most people won't need them in their personal threat models, having more options is always a good thing (and Plan B if your threat model changes for any reason). All of this is in a cloud of enough open standards that vendor lock-in, while maybe not impossible, should be unlikely.
You are right to be worried. You are right to be questioning all of this. I appreciate your concerns here (I know I have an uneasy relationship at best with at least one of the Big 3 myself). I hope I've offered at least some reasoning on where some of your concerns may be mitigated by the ecosystem as a whole.
Re: Bitwarden Acquires Passwordless.dev
#279Earlier quoted context omitted.
In your opinion, what would the ideal password management business model be? A non-profit like Signal? (Not rhetorical, actually curious what people want here.) As a thought experiment, let's say there are 1000 people who get annoyed when a software product they use takes VC funding. For those 1000 people to sustain a software product with a team of 5 for 10 years at 150k average per head. you'd need 7.5MM dollars ju…
I'm not sure if there is a good business model in password management. I can't answer that question. What I do know is, a good password manager is the type of software that should strive to be feature complete. And at that point resources should be used for maintenance, security, and software/OS compatibility updates. In other words, a low-if-any growth, but profitable business assuming the software is good. But once…
Re: Bitwarden Acquires Passwordless.dev
#280Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It should start to happen automatically. Apple, Google, and Microsoft have all stated the goal that they are hoping for deep inter-operation across all of a user's devices, regardless of ecosystem. If this is the case, then maybe there will be some solution through Google Takeout. Apple and MS seem less interested in this, but if one of them can generate an export, I can see services appearing that can work with th…
> If this is the case, then maybe there will be some solution through Google Takeout. Apple and MS seem less interested in this, but if one of them can generate an export, I can see services appearing that can work with that exported data. So far as I'm aware none of them are planning key exports any time soon. Keeping keys to the various secure enclaves of user's devices is a key part of the security footprint they…
Honestly, if they don't, they may find themselves under significant government regulation. The DMV in most states is hard to work with, but they work with everyone, regardless of disability, felony record, reprehensible views, everyone. If we're going to allow these companies to take this authoritative role in our systems, they should necessarily lose the right to refuse service. If they don't want that trade-off, then they should hand the whole thing to login.gov and other Government Identity schemes.
The best hinge point I would use in conversation with these players is to plan for third-party access from the beginning. Systems like Lastpass and Bitwarden have built robust systems for emergency access in the event of hospitalization or death. They've done so because its needed, often. If the Big 3 commit to allowing some access-for-transfer-out when accounts are closed or access is lost, even in non-ideal situations, that would go a long way.