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New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

theautopian.com

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Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I brake check someone on the highway, causing an accident, and it’s discovered that that’s what happened, I’d be pretty shocked* if the trailing driver was found responsible. That video looks like a combined lane change and brake check on the part of the Tesla. * and disappointed

I think the intention matters. If you did it to spite the guy behind you then you are at fault. If you did it because you thought something might cross the road and just wanted to be safe then it's not your fault even if nothing crossed the road or nothing was really there.

or lack of intention. If an engine throws a rod, if a driveshaft pole vaults, if a wheel falls off, or a suspension component catastrophically fails.

These are all realistic sudden stop issues that our laws mostly accommodate.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Said no one in Europe, ever.

In the US, 200 years is a long time, and the train doesn't go where you're going. In Europe, 200 km is a long distance, and it might.

We have highways everywhere... We could definitely dedicate the left most lane and convert every left most lane into people moving train tracks. Just because we haven't doesn't mean it isn't economical or feasible.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have this technology today. It's called trains.

yes, but we already have a network of asphalt, not rails.

Good point! Let's dedicate a fraction of it, say the left most lane, to becoming railway lines!!!

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#274

I'm still waiting for autonomous-only lanes. For extremely long and boring highways (usually full of trucks), this just seems like the logical conclusion of all self-driving tech to me. Dedicate one lane to self-driving, have the vehicles all on autonomous mode, and have them keep enough distance so their braking performance prevents them from crashing in an unexpected stop. You should be able to literally just sleep…

No you cannot sleep in the driver’s seat of anything less than level 4 autonomy. This is independent of the presence of autonomous-only lanes or “smart” roads with nfc signaling of lanes or rules or even additional sensors; these only extend the situations under which the current autonomy can function under, it doesn’t grant new capabilities.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#275

A beta that we are all helping test . Simply unbelievable that the NHTSA allows this to happen. The Tesla safety report which the company boastfully released wouldn't have counted this incident since the Tesla itself wasn't harmed.

Instead of finger pointing and blaming, the fact remains that several drivers crashed into an obstacle that they weren't prepared for, did not anticipate, and could not deal with. Maybe because they were driving too fast, weren't keeping their distance as they should have, or simply weren't paying enough attention.

Stuff like this happens all the time. Pile ups on highways have been a regular thing for as long as highways have existed. The pattern is always the same: something unexpected happens in front of somebody and they fail to respond or they over react. The problem recurses behind them as more vehicles become part of the problem. It doesn't matter if the problem at the front is real or not. The actual problem is that drivers further back are not prepared for a thing that should be considered something that can happen at any time.

The car in front of you might have all sorts of reasons to suddenly slam the brakes. You have no way of telling when they will do that because they are blocking your view to what's in front. There might be an unseen obstacle, engine failure, fog, a hole in the road, whatever. You have no way of telling until the brake lights in front of you come on. It doesn't actually matter why they slam their brakes or whether there even is a good reason for them to do that. You have to be ready for that eventuality and the appropriate response is going to be slamming your own brakes. And the car behind you had better be ready for that too.

Obviously we had a cascading failure of multiple drivers not being ready for that here. And they are dodging their own responsibility by pointing to the problem in front of them instead of the idiot behind them, or themselves. The second car obviously wasn't the problem as they avoided crashing into the Tesla. Good job. The Tesla is fine. It was the driver behind them that was the real problem.

The irony of human failures like this is that taking them out of the loop might make things safer. The Tesla stopped. It doesn't matter why. Human drivers behind it failed to act. Would that have happened if they all had FSD on or would we just have had a weird traffic jam occurring for no good reason at all? That too happens all the time.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you be shocked and disappointed? It is the obligation of the driver trailing you to maintain enough distance to be able to stop safely if the car in front of them has to brake hard for whatever reason. The fact that your hard braking wasn't actually necessary may mean that you're also responsible, but it doesn't absolve the other driver.

As a matter of pragmatism, the person intentionally putting other drivers at unnecessary risk by being an asshole should bear the responsibility for the outcomes of that intentional and unnecessary risk they elected to subject roadway users to.

our auto laws are founded from a time when catastrophic failure happened much more often. If a suspension bushing randomly disconnects, or a wheel hub disintegrates, or a differential grenades, who is the asshole? That's right, it's the person following too closely

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#277

I think what's interesting here is it's likely the first instance where Tesla FSD has been involved in an accident which affected other drivers. [Edit] From the video the Tesla is making a lane change and stopping simultaneously which means there could be a case of the Tesla FSD/driver doing a unsafe lane change.[1] Most of the time FSD just wrecks the Tesla itself or injures the driver of the Tesla (i.e. running int…

> I think what's interesting here is it's likely the first instance where Tesla FSD has been involved in an accident which affected other drivers. In a pileup like this it's basically never the fault of the front car, unless maybe if they are purposely causing the accident for insurance fraud or something. Maybe the driver will get cited for failing to maintain the minimum speed, but legally this isn't much different…

> it's basically never the fault of the front car

Because typically the car in the front stopped or slowed for a reason that does not violate any rules or responsibilities. But when they have neglected to follow rules, or uphold responsibilities, then they can share fault.

Generally speaking, drivers in the US have a legal responsibility to pay attention to what is going on and operate their vehicle with care.

Considering that the police report evidence includes the FAQ page from Tesla for the question “Do I need to pay attention while using autopilot?”, I think it’s clear what direction they’re going here.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention, with a car you get to decide your own schedule. If I want to take the train where I am, I have to be there at 4:30am or... well, that's it. That's the only time.

Poor argument for underfunded and purposefully stymied train development in the early to mid 20th century. Just look to Europe for what a large swath of the US could have if it invested in train infrastructure. Train good, car bad.

> Poor argument for underfunded and purposefully stymied train development in the early to mid 20th century.

If I had a working time machine, plus a magic want to make people do what I want, that might be a good argument. I don't have either, though. The world (or at least country) we live in didn't do that, and the mid-20th century was quite a while ago. Now what? Even if funding for rail magically cranked up today, we won't have ride-able lines for a decade, at best. Meanwhile, I've got places to go tomorrow, and rail isn't a realistic option.

> Just look to Europe for what a large swath of the US could have if it invested in train infrastructure.

Out in my part of the country, we don't have anything like Europe's population density. Your "could have had" would be very uneconomical out here.

> Train good, car bad.

Spare us the thought-terminating cliches, especially when they're wrong. Your post isn't convincing, but this parting shot doesn't make it any better. It just makes you sound like you're a propagandist.

Re: New video of Tesla crash demonstrates the problem of semi-automated driving

#279

I have a VW Golf and it has what it calls "adaptive cruise control". What makes it different from my older (simple) cruise control is that it will slow down and speed up again as necessary without my intervention. For example, if I set the speed to 70 mph and it gets close to a car ahead that is only going 65 mph, it will slow down and maintain what the software believes is a safe distance. Similarly, if a car in an…

I rented a RAV4 recently for not one but two cross-US trips (Seattle VA). Its adaptive cruise control (like its lane assist) felt mostly familiar from previous rentals. It takes a lot of getting used to, if you’re from a time when cars just mechanically do what you tell them (failure modes aside). That said, I have the almost opposite take! The adaptive CC wasn’t perfect, but it had a perfect failure mode all but one…

On my Highlander the beeping is actually a warning that basically says "Handle this or I'm going to slam the brakes for you."
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