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Story: “It would be career limiting..."

doomedprojects.com

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Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#271

Post by Aeolun »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #142
svnt wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of what you said is true, but your analog is a little off. It wasn’t a junior and a senior in the same role, it was a technical team deputized to do what they did, and a management group that apparently thought the deputies would fail, or convinced themselves their conclusions were wrong. The failure here is not one of lack of politics or communication on the part of the author or their team, but on the culture…

For what it’s worth, I don’t think they could have done more. But the conclusion of the story is to heroically drive off a cliff, and say “it’s all I could do.” That’s where I disagree. If it were me, I would have privately (emphasis on private) worked my way up the chain of command, trying to alert more and more people that there was a serious problem brewing. The meeting in the story was obviously going to be a fai…

> nor is it to say blatantly that a project is doomed. There’s usually a middle ground.

If you are in a situation where you are presenting 12 man-months of missing work to management and they stick their head in the sand instead of asking ‘how can we accomplish this anyway’ then your project is doomed.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#272

Post by prepend »

duped wrote: post #47

I mean this story is cathartic, but I don't get what the "rabble rousers" expected to happen. You don't go into a meeting like that to present problems, but to present solutions. And a 12 month delay on a $60 million contract isn't a solution, it's another problem for the sales/client success people. And doing it in front of a group of management, no less - that's like firing a shot across the bow, declaring that the…

I call these kinds of solutions “baby solutions” because they are impractical and assume the problem is that no one knows the “truth.” So they suggest impossible things to solve the problem.

Proposing an additional 2,400 person months and increasing the schedule 50% is not a viable solution. The PM probably said the kindest thing they could instead of “no shit Sherlock.”

A more useful solution would be to identify what could be cut to release something viable. Or to figure out why so much unplanned work was taking place and an idea on why to solve it.

It’s like recommending that step one is to built a time machine.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#273

Post by DSMan195276 »

fleddr wrote: post #264
Simon_O_Rourke wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You first need to "massage" the individuals to create some kind of coalition. A coalition willing to accept basic facts or responsibility. Hard agree with this approach! Why surprise and upset people enmasse when you can talk to individuals more privately and test the waters beforehand.

Test what? There is a massive problem. The priority is to acknowledge and solve it, not to spend a huge amount of time shooting the messenger or managing feelings.

I think the irony here is that OP _did_ do that anyway, he basically says he spent a year informing more and more management and others that the project was not on track. He played the game for a year, eventually got approval to make this report, and still half the people on here are going "well he didn't play the game long enough".

At the rate things were going, by the time OP "carefully" worked his way up on tactfully convincing everyone that the project was not on track it would have been release day.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#274

Post by andrekandre »

bipson wrote: post #233
xg15 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The people around me were trying to hint that things aren't quite as clear cut as it seems, but it took a swift kick in my backside to reboot my worldview. Was your rebooted worldview that you had been factually incorrect (i.e. the senior dev actually did do his work) or was it that you were factually correct, but hierarchy and office culture demanded that everyone pretend you weren't?

You're missing the point. What a novice usually does not realize is: It is easy to be right. What is hard is being actually helpful, coming up with a viable solution (vs. an idea). In the posted article there simply was no such solution. It was not viable. Unacceptable. Yes, an outsider with fresh eyes might see things differently and without bias, but most certainly the experienced team knows damn right that you're…

  > "I just came here and I immediately saw that you all are idiots, you should listen to me!".
i may be a total outlier, but personally, i kinda like this type of person... regardless if they are wrong or right, it shows they have passion and really care (though i will admit this may be a naive point of view!)

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#275

Post by 3pt14159 »

thih9 wrote: post #116
lumost wrote: post #58

There is also another way of looking at this doomed project. 1. A client didn't know what they wanted, had 60 million to spend on figuring it out, and hired a firm that would let them spend 60 million. 2. The firm was incentivized to provide a nice looking underestimate and then adapt as new work was discovered. 3. The firm continued getting paid as long as the client was happy. 4. The client did not want to be told…

I see your point and I agree. At the same time I’d say this bigger picture is directly contributing to the secrecy and dishonesty within the firm. Not only the client is not aware what they actually want and are getting; it looks like the firm is not fully aware what they’re delivering either. I guess dealing with clients who are wrong may be a risky business.

This type of thinking is how we get ants. Ants Lana. Ants.

There are real humans in the loop here. They can easily put their foot down and find another job if they get fired. These are not people at the edge of feeding their families. These are people that buy 94 octane gas at the Sunoco fuel pump for their stupid sports car.

If people don't make moral decisions in their day to day lives the world gets worse. It may not seem like the millions of dollars belong to anyone but they do. Pensioners or millionaires or even just normal folks that grasp their tiny share of the pool via their ESOP.

When people just throw resources and good will under the bus in the name of career advancement they're visibly hurting the world. Each single dollar could have been spent on refugees, climate change, or war relief.

I am very sick of this cavalier attitude by the tech elite.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#276

Post by cryptonector »

BWStearns wrote: post #78
duped wrote: post #47

I mean this story is cathartic, but I don't get what the "rabble rousers" expected to happen. You don't go into a meeting like that to present problems, but to present solutions. And a 12 month delay on a $60 million contract isn't a solution, it's another problem for the sales/client success people. And doing it in front of a group of management, no less - that's like firing a shot across the bow, declaring that the…

> concoct a plan to stage the product development and release such that it gets done and you don't cost a giant contract Yes, always showing up with a solution to problems that you've surfaced is a good idea and good for your career, ... BUT: isn't coming up with a solution to this problem literally the job of the management team that they presented to? If management hears "the thing you think will happen will absolu…

It doesn't matter whose responsibility coming up with a solution is. If it isn't you but you have one and they don't, then go ahead and step on their toes -- be diplomatic and kind, but go ahead, because a) you'll be saving the firm's bacon, b) you'll be saving the customer's too, c) you'll be making your career.

In TFA's case I suspect there really was no solution short of sinking a pile more cash into the project, and that was probably not an option. Though, who besides TFA knows, TFA gave us too little detail to be able to tell.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#277

Post by ntr-- »

jimmaswell wrote: post #217
peteradio wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a horrible truth, hate to upvote but you may be right. But why is it engineers who must rise to the political occasion?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wason_selection_task STEM people will naturally succeed at this task immediately, while an average person, like a koala unable to understand a leaf is food unless it's put on a tree, can only answer the logic problem if it's phrased in terms of social rules. The STEM people's brains tended to develop in a way that intuitively understands logic in a more abstract way, better able to und…

> In Wason's study, not even 10% of subjects found the correct solution.

I knew I was different, but I didn't think I was that different...

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#278

Post by lmm »

maxbond wrote: post #261
lmm wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being able to understand threats is not always beneficial.

Could you elaborate?

You're harder to effectively blackmail (and therefore less likely to be blackmailed) if you can't understand when someone's blackmailing you, for example.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#279

Post by yarg »

duped wrote: post #47

I mean this story is cathartic, but I don't get what the "rabble rousers" expected to happen. You don't go into a meeting like that to present problems, but to present solutions. And a 12 month delay on a $60 million contract isn't a solution, it's another problem for the sales/client success people. And doing it in front of a group of management, no less - that's like firing a shot across the bow, declaring that the…

And in this case the room's interest was in denying reality.

You cannot solve a problem that you haven't acknowledged.

Re: Story: “It would be career limiting..."

#280

Post by MereInterest »

NikolaNovak wrote: post #229
MereInterest wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd put it in the category of "Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?" [0]. There is no way for somebody with authority to express a preference without it coming across as a request. The same words that from a trusted coworker would be advice to keep your head down become an implied threat when given from an executive. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_no_one_rid_me_of_this_tur...

Yeah, that's fair enough. I have been lucky to have had some managers in the past who were great mentors, very transparent, and have several times during my career actively coached me on what are "Career limiting moves". It is a phrase I have heard without it being sent or received as a threat. I have over-extrapolated and under-empathized though, and realize that in majority of situations for majority of involved fo…

Good point, and it very much depends on the pre-existing relationship with a manager, along with the context where a statement is given. I could imagine pulling aside a coworker and quietly telling them that they're about to hear about a new project, but that volunteering to work on it would be a dead-end and a career-limiting move. Something in private, informative for an upcoming choice, not a judgment of ongoing projects.

That said, the context of the article, calling somebody out in a public setting based on a large amount of work that they just presented on, is very much the opposite of that hypothetical context.

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