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Aging programmer

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Re: Aging programmer

#271

Post by thread_id »

cholmon wrote: post #148
thread_id wrote: post #69

At 64 years I am still going strong. I consider myself blessed that I have landed a position that allows the to be the leader (I manage a small team) and still be hands on with everything: Architecture, desgin, coding, infrastructure, cloud engineering, DevOps engineer, DBA, the list goes on. It is a Goldilocks job. The technologies that we manage and master are miriad. We are a small company and my team owns the ent…

I’m interested in hearing more about your Socratic approach to management. Could you elaborate on that a bit?

Very little of what we do as developers or software engineers is transactional. This is very creative work we do. So I don't take status about anything that they are doing. Rather I discuss all aspects of the problem they are trying to solve. Or ask questions about how they approach solving those those problems. I usually enter the conversation with the same verbal queue: "indulge me while think out loud about this....". We discuss concepts like technical debt or design patterns or junky data in our database and how to improve data quality. I also deliberately avoid creating artificial time boundaries. Everyone knows I prioritize quality and stability. (faster, better, cheaper - it's always better)

Re: Aging programmer

#272

Post by justrudd »

BurningFrog wrote: post #256
mike_ivanov wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I’ve got a pretty good memory, a lot of the times I don’t have a direct or complete answer for their question. I’ll have a tingle of a memory that is similar to their question. The same. Especially under pressure. Which makes it virtually impossible for me to pass an oral technical interview.

If you've done good work for a few decades, you have tons of former coworkers willing to hire you.

Agree completely. Reach out to prior managers that you respected and would want to work with again. In the past decade, I’ve worked with the same manager across 3 different companies. All without a loop.

Re: Aging programmer

#273

Post by hota_mazi »

thread_id wrote: post #266
hota_mazi wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've met all kinds. People who are stellar managers, have extremely high empathy and EQ, understand their engineers, prop them up, help their career, guide them toward both professional and personal growth. They also did not have a single ounce of leadership or charisma in them, very low technical chops, no vision, and not interested in providing team leadership. I've also met stellar leaders, visionaries, who inspir…

You have provided a wonderfully elegant description of the two ends of this spectrum. Spectrum is a perfect term to use becasue technical leaders who become managers exist on that spectrum in very dynamic ways. Everyone is surrounded by 360 degrees of team members who have different perspectives, expectations, needs, wants, etc. No one can be all things for all people at all times. For my own experience, depending on…

Thank you for the kind words, and I totally agree with your perspective.

Re: Aging programmer

#274

Post by davemp »

Seattle3503 wrote: post #141
beej71 wrote: post #94

I found I lost interest in vapid work. Programming is still fun, but it's a big challenge to find a job that is fulfilling. When I was younger, I'd work on whatever. Then everything started sounding like yet another get rich quick company, and is that what I was giving up my life for? Just to move little green pieces of paper around? The most appealing thing I'd seen recently was a company that wrote software to help…

> The most appealing thing I'd seen recently was a company that wrote software to help maximize farm yields. At least there was some real, effective benefit for a great many people. After my graduate work I am the opppsite. I realized that meaningfulness is not a sufficient condotion for enjoying my work. The tasks I work on and my coworkers make a much larger impact on my happiness. Whether I work on something "stup…

Coworkers who are pleasant to work with make all the difference to me as well. Smooth communication, trust, and a bit of comradery can make meaningless work go by quickly. Politics, micromanagement, and rivalry can make even logging in a chore.

Re: Aging programmer

#275

Post by lawgimenez »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #264
lawgimenez wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I currently started a basic iOS project with SwiftUI and it is just utterly painful to work with. I kinda hate mobile development because of this reactive roadmap shit. Why would anyone code a UI. I’m old now and I realized I’m getting resistant to changes.

I started off, writing device control stuff. There's a lot of similarity between that, and UI work. I trained as an artist, way back in the Paleozoic Era, and that gives me "airs" about things like graphic design, and data presentation. I've spent a good part of my career, unlearning that crap. I'm usually best off, leaving the defaults in place, if possible. I write about that here[0]. I think that UI needs to be tr…

Thanks! It was well written. Makes sense, I came from Android development and UI/UX is really important to get right the first time.

Re: Aging programmer

#276

Post by LtWorf »

sureglymop wrote: post #267
mike_ivanov wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These types can't usually think clearly under pressure. Besides, answering coding questions is very, very different from inventing those algorithms. It's a completely different way of thinking. That's why.

But does that mean they're bad programmers? I don't think so at all. As a young person, we grew up with the internet so we're conditioned to just know the "pointer" to the information and then have to google/search for it. Now I've learned all the algorithms and data structures at uni too and passed the exams but what remains are the names of them and roughly when they are needed. It may be unfortunate but that's wha…

Once at an hackaton a computer science phd student ended up in my team.

He was unable to execute a .py file.

Re: Aging programmer

#277

Post by w4ffl35 »

iepathos wrote: post #239
w4ffl35 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the thing that gets frustrating as i age are interviews and code challenges. i'd really prefer a certification that proves i can do xyz which i take once (per year? in my life?). then just decide if you like me based on personality and communication. i have over 200 repositories etc. its redundant, and random code challenges that differ from employer to employer prove next to nothing. 20 years ago it was the norm for…

I've interviewed people with computer science phd's from schools with good reputations that couldn't program worth a damn when it came to some simple algorithm and practical coding questions in person so, I don't have a lot of faith in certs/degrees for this.

what about open source github repos that i maintain etc.? i think that's more valuable that a code challenge

Re: Aging programmer

#278

Post by yodsanklai »

scarface74 wrote: post #196
spfzero wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point may be that, yes still as capable etc., but also with a ton more life-cycle experience in real-world development. So for someone hiring that values that experience, maybe they ask a bit more about that, and do less whiteboard work to validate that you really did go to CS school. With a string resume, a hiring manager might think "They probably know what a binary tree is because it they didn't, they…

Actually, three jobs ago back in 2015, I had two interviews. The first hiring manager asked me to do a merge sort on the whiteboard. The second company’s new director told me what problems he was having and that they were on an acquisition spree and what their plans were. He asked me how I would go about helping them. Both interviews were about half a day, I got offers from both the company that asked me to do a merg…

> Real business folks have real world problems to solve. They don’t care whether you can reverse a binary tree.

I suppose it's all about the role you're applying for. There are "real business" where engineers are hired to solve technical challenges. Being able to solve simple algorithmic problems is a legitimate prerequisite for this type of role.

Re: Aging programmer

#279

Post by mike_ivanov »

BurningFrog wrote: post #256
mike_ivanov wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I’ve got a pretty good memory, a lot of the times I don’t have a direct or complete answer for their question. I’ll have a tingle of a memory that is similar to their question. The same. Especially under pressure. Which makes it virtually impossible for me to pass an oral technical interview.

If you've done good work for a few decades, you have tons of former coworkers willing to hire you.

Yes, they refer me to their corporate recruiter and what happens next is "sorry, that's how the process is, we can't change it" :-)

Re: Aging programmer

#280

Post by mbrodersen »

somenameforme wrote: post #98
krmboya wrote: post #10

I wonder where the genesis is of this idea that programming is young person's game akin to physical sports where speed, explosiveness and endurance matter. It seems to me that it's an intellectual activity where one should go on for very long honing their skills and becoming better and better at it with age. Maybe the industry sidelines the older more experienced technical folks at a cost, and that's why there seems…

Chess is a primarily mental competition, but players at the top of the world tend to hit their peak at around 35 years old. Players can continue playing at an exceptionally high level until the end of their life, but on average there is a gradual downward slide from that peak. Magnus Carlsen, the current world champ and arguably strongest player of all time, has decided to simply stop defending his title (held since…

Chess is not programming. We have software that can beat any human chess player. We don’t have software that can beat even a mediocre software developer.
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