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The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

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Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#271

Post by ahepp »

bieh wrote: post #138

I moved to Lisbon in 2020, and I've become increasingly aware of the impact that high-income remote-worker immigrants like me are having on the city, and other similar places. I've been thinking of building something to try and help: https://www.reddit.com/r/PortugalExpats/comments/vy0i5r/crit... It's proved... controversial! I'd be interested to get HNs take.

I think it puts a pretty negative framing on immigration, that it's something you have to buy an indulgence for. Maybe that's true. Being a well paid tech worker who might try the expat lifestyle someday, I'm pretty biased. But I also wonder what it might look like to frame things in a more positive light. Maybe that could be connecting immigrants to jobs making a productive impact in the local economy, or showcasing local investment opportunities. Just from a pragmatic perspective, I feel like this kind of positive framing is more likely to get engagement. People get very defensive, very fast, if you make them feel as if they've done something wrong (even if they have).

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#272

Post by notch656a »

JoeJonathan wrote: post #264
jseliger wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We pay a rent for a small flat that used to be very expensive and now is on the cheap side in our quarter of the city Portugal should build more housing, which is a simple, effective solution if the rent is too damn high: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/03/the-ren... . The nice thing about indoor space is that we can make pretty much as much of it as we'd like.

In what way is building more housing simple? If it were that straightforward, California (which has much more space and money) would have done it, and Californians wouldn't be moving to Portugal.

The physical building of houses and even raising the capital to buy the materials and labor to build some sort of house capable of housing people, is not anywhere near the choke point in California. Eliminate the zoning and building inspectors and associated enforcement mechanisms and the houses would pop up.

I guarantee if California said tomorrow, "build what you like on your land, there will be no permits required!" People would flock to build on the land. Whether the dangers of that outweighs the dangers of homelessness and high price families spend on rent that makes healthcare, healthy food, and education less affordable, is an exercise for the reader.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#273

Post by [deleted] »

JoeJonathan wrote: post #264
jseliger wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We pay a rent for a small flat that used to be very expensive and now is on the cheap side in our quarter of the city Portugal should build more housing, which is a simple, effective solution if the rent is too damn high: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/03/the-ren... . The nice thing about indoor space is that we can make pretty much as much of it as we'd like.

In what way is building more housing simple? If it were that straightforward, California (which has much more space and money) would have done it, and Californians wouldn't be moving to Portugal.

[deleted]

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#274

Post by ephbit »

jseliger wrote: post #115
jonathanstrange wrote: post #97

Yes, the situation is dire. I live in Lisbon as a foreigner for more than 12 years now. We pay a rent for a small flat that used to be very expensive and now is on the cheap side in our quarter of the city. Luckily, we have an older contract that cannot be changed as easily as newer ones. I'm not thrilled by the possibility that our landlord might cancel it some day, however, e.g. for relatives to move in. Rents in t…

We pay a rent for a small flat that used to be very expensive and now is on the cheap side in our quarter of the city Portugal should build more housing, which is a simple, effective solution if the rent is too damn high: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/03/the-ren... . The nice thing about indoor space is that we can make pretty much as much of it as we'd like.

Yeah, Portugal should simply tear down all the old mouldy buildings of Lisbon and replace them with shiny skyscrapers, so each and every Portuguese can have their very own flat in Lisbon.

Or if they're crazy enough to want to keep these old buildings they could just build all the skycrapers in the park surrounding peak Monsanto, easy.

/s

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#275

Post by citilife »

jonathanstrange wrote: post #97

Yes, the situation is dire. I live in Lisbon as a foreigner for more than 12 years now. We pay a rent for a small flat that used to be very expensive and now is on the cheap side in our quarter of the city. Luckily, we have an older contract that cannot be changed as easily as newer ones. I'm not thrilled by the possibility that our landlord might cancel it some day, however, e.g. for relatives to move in. Rents in t…

Many dislike the idea, but this is why people turn to "nationalism".

If you want to decrease unemployment, you add tariffs for imports enabling more businesses to open domestically (i.e. tariffs effectively increase import costs).

Similarly, you can loosen building codes to increase production of homes, limit visa duration, require citizenship for home ownership, etc. Those are some obvious fixes, why is the government not doing it?

Beyond the obvious potential fixes, all EU countries are facing the same issue:

- supporting immigrants (high level of immigration)

- no controls over ones border(s) (anyone can move between EU countries)

- over regulation and too many social programs (reducing peoples willingness to work & increasing burden on the current tax base)

- over regulation of industry and farming has left the only option to survive being to work in a city (as an example, see nitrogen reduction regulations in the Netherlands)

It's all "give-and-take" you have to decide how you want to live... To me it sounds like the EU is hitting a critical state, but is there a will to make the tough calls yet?

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#276

Post by ahepp »

madaxe_again wrote: post #17

There’s much truth here, but it isn’t the entire picture. Lisboa and Oporto are hideously overpriced, and it is indeed hard to see how a normal Portuguese earner can afford to live in either. Even Vila Nova de Gaia, which was the “cheap” side of Oporto, is now parlously expensive. This effect has bled along the coast, and many coastal villages now ask €200k for an unmodernised one bedroom house. But… the interior of…

> people are going to have to consider that perhaps they don’t all have to live in the top 5 cities in their country.

I think it's an interesting question: why are there only a handful of "top" cities? What can we do to make cities that aren't desirable, more desirable?

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#277

Post by rr888 »

al_mandi wrote: post #182
rr888 wrote: post #73

Its a global problem that interest rates have been too low for too long. Most Americans dont realize that in most countries, house prices continued to go up through the 08-10 recession, so haven't gone down since the early 90s. Property needs a big global crash.

The interest is the cause of the problem in the first place. We've known for thousands of years that usury is bad, it's prohibited in the three major religions, and for good reason. We see it time and time again. Policy makers try to address the symptom but not the cause, then people cry when nothing gets fixed.

You might be right. I assume lending as a regular part of the economy but my grandparents lived in a world where it was very difficult, even for a mortgage. I can't see any real benefit of credit cards, payday lenders.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#278

Post by lthornberry »

JoeJonathan wrote: post #264
jseliger wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We pay a rent for a small flat that used to be very expensive and now is on the cheap side in our quarter of the city Portugal should build more housing, which is a simple, effective solution if the rent is too damn high: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/03/the-ren... . The nice thing about indoor space is that we can make pretty much as much of it as we'd like.

In what way is building more housing simple? If it were that straightforward, California (which has much more space and money) would have done it, and Californians wouldn't be moving to Portugal.

For many decades, California has had extremely restrictive building regulations, especially in the most desirable areas. That is slowly changing, but the actual building has always been straightforward. It is getting the permission to do so that is complicated, expensive, and often just impossible.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#279

Post by hepinhei »

What this article does not say is that the prime Minister has 6 houses... So he is benefiting from this (https://www.cmjornal.pt/politica/detalhe/antonio-costa-tem-c...)

We are living more and more in a world where people work but are not able to live with dignity

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#280

Post by sofixa »

citilife wrote: post #275
jonathanstrange wrote: post #97

Yes, the situation is dire. I live in Lisbon as a foreigner for more than 12 years now. We pay a rent for a small flat that used to be very expensive and now is on the cheap side in our quarter of the city. Luckily, we have an older contract that cannot be changed as easily as newer ones. I'm not thrilled by the possibility that our landlord might cancel it some day, however, e.g. for relatives to move in. Rents in t…

Many dislike the idea, but this is why people turn to "nationalism". If you want to decrease unemployment, you add tariffs for imports enabling more businesses to open domestically (i.e. tariffs effectively increase import costs). Similarly, you can loosen building codes to increase production of homes, limit visa duration, require citizenship for home ownership, etc. Those are some obvious fixes, why is the governme…

Basically all of what you said is empty populist propaganda that doesn't pass a basic sniff test. You're painting the EU as the bad guy with a broad brush and it's just total nonsense.

* depends on how you define "high" levels of migration, but few EU countries fit that. Portugal does, because they explicitly encourage it. Why? Nothing to do with the EU, they're trying to fight negative population growth.

* social programs aren't an EU thing, they're purely local. And the "too much social spending makes people not want to work" ia such bullshit.

* there are more local regulations than EU regulations. Which ones specifically are you referring to as too much?

* farming is explicitly subsidised to make it profitable. What are you talking about?

* not everyone can move between EU countries, you need to be a citizen. Like the Portuguese that have moved all around (e.g. there are probably millions of people of Portuguese descent in France)

It's annoying how popular empty nationalistic populists have gotten. Can't nobody bother to fact check their bullshit?

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