I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019) • Hacker News Board

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#271

Post by bryanrasmussen » Sat, Aug 06, 2022, 2:25 PM UTC

andrekandre wrote: post #108

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In ancient times, right until the attacks by Islamist marauders and "civilized" Britishers, none of what you have mentioned were an issue. My assumption, when applied to India, would be that it would be an issue for the untouchables caste? >If you are not aware, this was how most of the world lived. Lower class was the norm. We are now living in an age of disproportionate luxury. Even so it still seems unlikely that…

> My assumption, when applied to India, would be that it would be an issue for the untouchables caste? afaik untouchables as a concept was mostly enacted around (british) colonial rule (when they instituted the caste system we see even to today), so might not apply to the time period they are talking about... (happy to be corrected on this if i misunderstand)

I've heard this before, but always found it doubtful, conquerors tend to enact systems that mimic those in their home countries.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#272

Post by phyzome » Sat, Aug 06, 2022, 2:29 PM UTC

fian wrote: post #73

taeric wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charity to the question, I think it is a good question why we bathe as much as we do. Water animals spend a ton of time bathing, no surprise. Many animals are fine with dust baths, though. And many are severely hampered by being wet. Look up a picture of a wet owl.

Unlike many (but not all) other animals, humans spend considerable time in close proximity to other humans in enclosed spaces. If you are pungent, other people in an enclosed space with you will not appreciate your smell. I've done quite a few multi week hikes with only fresh water bathing (no soap, no deodorant) with others (2-18 other people). During the hikes we are outdoors and although we gather reasonably close…

This is a very interesting point. Indoors is quite different from outdoors.

Not so sure about the disease spread part. Hand-washing was... not particularly universal, not so long ago.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#273

Post by verisimi » Sat, Aug 06, 2022, 2:30 PM UTC

UncleMeat wrote: post #244

verisimi wrote: post #82

History is only an expedient story, not that much to do with reality. We really can't know how people lived a 1000 years ago, despite what might appear to be mountains of evidence. This evidence is actually the creation of historians in the past century... and when you look at their sources for yourself, you will see that they are open to interpretation despite being presented as fact. For the ruling structure today,…

> This evidence is actually the creation of historians in the past century... Academic history tends to refer to primary sources. It is true that what survives in the archive is a curated collection, but curating the archive is not the same as doing history and should be thought of differently. Historians have absolutely no trouble with the idea that the archive can produce multiple narratives and that no narrative i…

> Historians have absolutely no trouble with the idea that the archive can produce multiple narratives and that no narrative is the absolute truth.

and

> I find it frustrating to see so many people with no or minimal background in anything resembling the discipline making wide proclamations about the limitations of history writing.

I think I already made the same point as you, ie that no narrative is the absolute truth.

You then say how my comment frustrates you. In fact, you provide a case in point about how easily things can be misunderstood!

You accurately quote what I said about evidence, but failed to provide the context from the preceeding remark, where I talk about the appearance of 'mountains of evidence'. I'm not sure if it is intentional, but I feel like you have cherry picked something too make your point, despite my intention!

Here is what I said:

> We really can't know how people lived a 1000 years ago, despite what might appear to be mountains of evidence. This evidence is actually the creation of historians in the past century... and when you look at their sources for yourself, you will see that they are open to interpretation despite being presented as fact.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#274

Post by selimthegrim » Sat, Aug 06, 2022, 2:32 PM UTC

walrus01 wrote: post #100

If you read translations of early medieval Arabic language travelers that visited Europe, they were almost all universally appalled by the state of hygiene and sewage/waste in major cities in general. Not saying people didn't bathe at all but it clearly didn't meet societally acceptable standards of an educated person from Cairo or Baghdad.

Kath and Gurganj were not exactly up to their standards either.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#275

Post by Kiro » Sat, Aug 06, 2022, 2:32 PM UTC

yunohn wrote: post #247

Kiro wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you? They are still right - most other animals do not in fact bathe.

I’m not saying they manufacture soap and showers, it’s very obvious that they have different ways of bathing. I think most people understood this as self-cleaning, so dust, water, licking, everything.

Bathing requires water. Animals obviously clean themselves but the poster asked about bathing specifically.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#276

Post by ncmncm » Sat, Aug 06, 2022, 2:33 PM UTC

Boltgolt wrote: post #203

ncmncm wrote: post #201

As it was explained to me, the soap people made themselves in the old days was so much better than today's, a bath could last you weeks, or even months. This modern stuff you can buy barely lasts a day.

Maybe, but i don't think the best soap the world has ever seen will keep me from smelling like sweat after a few hot days

Poe's Law strikes again.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#277

Post by ncmncm » Sat, Aug 06, 2022, 2:37 PM UTC

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #235

ncmncm wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, like I said, modern soap. You can't buy the good stuff at all.

Where do you shop that doesn't sell plain old soap bars? Need me to mail some for you?

Obviously, plain old soap bars will not suffice to make a bath last for weeks or months. As I said pretty clearly, and you must have read, you cannot buy the good stuff.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#278

Post by webmobdev » Sat, Aug 06, 2022, 2:38 PM UTC

tlogan wrote: post #260

Here are some contra points: - Aztecs were burning incense around the conquistadors to hide their unpleasant body odor (documented) - The Christian Church actually said bathing naked was forbidden - the pope instructed all public bath to be closed - The monks order clearly said to bath only once a year - general decline of the cities caused that a lot of public baths to be closed. Rome had none in medieval time. - Mu…

> The Christian Church actually said bathing naked was forbidden ... the pope instructed all public bath to be closed ... The monks order clearly said to bath only once a year ... My understanding was that bathing was strongly discouraged by church ...

The article does highlight and bring some context to this:

... Well the idea that medieval people didn’t bathe is a persistent myth ... Why is that? Well part of it is a modern misunderstanding of the idea of bathing. It’s true that we have medieval sources which warn against “excessive” bathing. But here’s the thing, that wasn’t really about being clean, it was about hanging out naked in bathhouses with the opposite sex. They didn’t want you to not be clean, they wanted you to not be going down the bath house and getting your fuck on.

... And yeah, some holy people didn’t bathe, notably saints who would forego bathing themselves but bathe sick or poor people ... But if you bring that up you are missing the point. Medieval people thought that bathing and being clean was really nice, so giving it up and living with your stank was a sign that you had given up on the corporeal world and only thought of heaven. It was holy because it was uncomfortable, like wearing a hair shirt, or eating vegan, and hitting your chest with rocks and sitting in the desert trying not to wank. You know, standard saint stuff. It is mentioned because it is uncommon and uncomfortable ... These things, while they make sense in context are often taken by people who have never learned a damn thing about the middle ages and read in the worst possible light.

> Muslim and Byzantine records mentioned how dirty westener were

That may have been probably true from the perspective of muslims because in Islam personal hygiene is part of the religious obligations of muslims. Religious muslims are supposed to pray 3/5 times a day, but before they do so they are supposed to clean themselves as per a prescribed ritual called wudu ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wudu ). So a religious muslim, even in the medieval times, would be cleaning himself atleast 3/5 times a day (and that's apart from regular bathing). Thus, in comparison to that, some non-muslims could have been perceived as "dirty". It would have been even more so for them if they also learnt of christian saints and / or leaders promoting not bathing as a path to salvation, when their religion tells the exact opposite.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#279

Post by nemo » Sat, Aug 06, 2022, 2:41 PM UTC

tlogan wrote: post #260

Here are some contra points: - Aztecs were burning incense around the conquistadors to hide their unpleasant body odor (documented) - The Christian Church actually said bathing naked was forbidden - the pope instructed all public bath to be closed - The monks order clearly said to bath only once a year - general decline of the cities caused that a lot of public baths to be closed. Rome had none in medieval time. - Mu…

>The Christian Church actually said bathing naked was forbidden

There's no "The Cristian Church," I think you're referring to a modern misconception on a Catholic ban on mixed bath houses. They still had bath houses, they just banned men and women being naked in them together. These bath houses were often also brothels, which makes the ban perhaps still prudish, but nothing extraordinary.

Monks did bathe rarely, which is discussed in the article.

While most of the great old public baths of the Roman era closed, there are illustrations and archaeological evidence of bathhouses in the Middle Ages. They're wooden and much smaller affairs, but they still exist.

I recognize a few other common misconceptions of in the rest of your list, and there's a number of issues with "Muslim and Byzantine records mentioned how dirty westener were." There were certainly cases where "Westerners" thought "Muslims" and "Byzantines" were dirty too, that's a standard way to otherize other cultures. Cross-cultural judgments of hygiene are not a thing one should take at face value. But also all three of the labels "Western" "Muslim" and "Byzantine" are broad generalizations. To generalize about their attitudes towards others or bathing is to be in error, as these were neither constants nor universals nor even truly discrete groups.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#280

Post by taeric » Sat, Aug 06, 2022, 2:43 PM UTC

fian wrote: post #73

taeric wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charity to the question, I think it is a good question why we bathe as much as we do. Water animals spend a ton of time bathing, no surprise. Many animals are fine with dust baths, though. And many are severely hampered by being wet. Look up a picture of a wet owl.

Unlike many (but not all) other animals, humans spend considerable time in close proximity to other humans in enclosed spaces. If you are pungent, other people in an enclosed space with you will not appreciate your smell. I've done quite a few multi week hikes with only fresh water bathing (no soap, no deodorant) with others (2-18 other people). During the hikes we are outdoors and although we gather reasonably close…

Body oder is an odd one. I saw a sibling post talk about skin biome and I feel that has was more traction than it is credited.

As an example, I can definitely develop body oder. However, it generally takes me longer than the rest of my family. I can do 30 miles on my bike and just need to change clothes. And I basically never use deodorant.

To see this at a notional level, consider that deodorant is not common in Japan.

There was an amusing viral video not long ago about people remembering growing up that they had a bath day. Typically Saturday or Sunday, when they would bathe for the week. This is not that uncommon. Well, was not.