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Part of my code makes Copilot crash

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Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#271

Post by throwaway290 »

lmm wrote: post #219
mlyle wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Removing your face-recognition function because it's less effective on black faces is certainly a substantial ideological commitment. Deploying your face-recognition function for something critical that impacts user quality of life, even if it doesn't recognize black faces well, is an ideological commitment by default. > That's not generally true. It's absolutely generally true. We generally call people by the name…

Quoted post unavailable.

> Maybe to their face. We certainly don't stop describing those people honestly in general

It's routine politeness to comply with wishes on how someone wants to be called without them present, no? Would like to hear if this is culture-specific.

I generally don't care what variation of my name I'm called, but I can imagine myself wanting to be called by a specific name other than what's in my ID and I'd expect you to comply, and if you don't then I can totally see me considering it an infraction even if you don't do it to my face. I mean, there'd be a reason I asked for it in the first place, right?

Of course, non-compliance shouldn't make you a target for crowd-sourced justice (to a degree it'd be my personal issue if it's a touchy subject for me), but unless you are mildly sociopathic you should understand that ignoring this request paints you as mentally weak (if unable to remember) or domination-seeking/insulting (if done on purpose), and that it could be a reason for me to avoid interacting with you.

I don't think it's any more optional with gender (probably less since, unlike with names, there're barely any pronunciation barriers with pronouns across languages). I've met people for whom it was a touchy subject and I could empathise.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#272

Post by magicalist »

Mo3 wrote: post #254
pseudalopex wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small children do not take hormones or have gender related surgery. Adolescents under medical oversight can. These treatments have very low regret rates and reduce suicides.

Quoted post unavailable.

> They do now.

Giving puberty blockers before puberty doesn't do anything. At this point, please cite a source for this epidemic of six year olds taking GnRH.

> No, that's why I made sure to specifically write "teenagers"

No, you specifically wrote

> significant amounts of small children taking hormones and having gender reassignment surgery

Also changed:

> That's the case until now, since only a few years ago there were 4000% less instances

Weird, I thought that was

> 4000% increase in teenagers claiming to be gay

not transgender?

> The data is lagging, obviously, but I'm somewhat certain that statistic is going to be skewed soon.

Uh huh.

> just go on Youtube and watch the doctors speaking out now

I think we're narrowing in on the problem.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#273

Post by magicalist »

throwaway290 wrote: post #251
pseudalopex wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small children do not take hormones or have gender related surgery. Adolescents under medical oversight can. These treatments have very low regret rates and reduce suicides.

Ehm... Sorry to break it to you, but people who think they were born the wrong sex are increasingly treated with hormones before the onset of puberty (with puberty-delaying treatments it's kind of the point). Not arguing whether it's good or bad, but by definition they are children at that point in time.

You can take them at the onset of puberty, at which point you are an adolescent by definition, which is that the GP said.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#274

Post by texaslonghorn5 »

xupybd wrote: post #256
fny wrote: post #122

So I've just tested it, and I can confirm, yes, copilot refuses to give suggestions related to gender. Now I know a lot of people are calling this absurd, but looking more closely, there are two PR nightmare scenarios. 1. Copilot makes a suggestion that implies gender is binary, a certain community explodes with anger and an entire news hype cycle starts about how Microsoft is enforcing views on gender with code. 2.…

There is a safe version of gender. Grammatical gender is, for now, binary and as far as I'm aware not offensive to most. But I agree you can't avoid offending people. The world is nuts everything is offensive to someone.

Grammatical gender is not as simple/uniform as you state https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_type_of...

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#275

Post by mlyle »

duskwuff wrote: post #267
kodah wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. The answer is approved by Dave Cheney, he works at GitHub, and if you've ever attended one of his talks it's plain to see he's a very scrupulous person. I also don't think this is an example of Microsoft taking a side; rather I read it as them refusing to bat, which seems fine. What I would've preferred one of these threads to be about is how all of this works. Like, how do they post-hoc filter certain things…

Making Copilot stop in its tracks when it sees the word "gender" and refuse to continue until the word is removed is still making a statement. Refusing to bat would be treating "gender" as a meaningless token, just as if you'd typed "traqre" instead.

No, refusing to generate stuff in an area where the output is likely to be controversial (in either direction) is refusing to bat. It'll wait for a pitch that it thinks it can hit, just like it refuses to play for many other categories-- you'll have hard time to get Copilot to enumerate races, too.

Ignoring the potential offensiveness and YOLOing through it is swinging the bat wildly at every pitch.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#276

Post by throwaway290 »

magicalist wrote: post #273
throwaway290 wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ehm... Sorry to break it to you, but people who think they were born the wrong sex are increasingly treated with hormones before the onset of puberty (with puberty-delaying treatments it's kind of the point). Not arguing whether it's good or bad, but by definition they are children at that point in time.

You can take them at the onset of puberty, at which point you are an adolescent by definition, which is that the GP said.

I'm not saying what you can do or not, I just see evidence (a quick google away) that people are given meds to delay puberty, meaning before its start (= onset), meaning they are not yet adolescents by definition.

Edit to everyone pointing out a technicality: yes, puberty blockers != hormone replacement therapy. However, puberty blockers ⊆ hormone replacement therapy.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#277

Post by bryanrasmussen »

fny wrote: post #122

So I've just tested it, and I can confirm, yes, copilot refuses to give suggestions related to gender. Now I know a lot of people are calling this absurd, but looking more closely, there are two PR nightmare scenarios. 1. Copilot makes a suggestion that implies gender is binary, a certain community explodes with anger and an entire news hype cycle starts about how Microsoft is enforcing views on gender with code. 2.…

I'm going to have to say it is ridiculous because there are all sorts of things that cause problems that the copilot generated code is going to have to keep out following this reasoning -

let's not handle ethnicity, if we're going to be sensitive about gender that is an area which is also sensitive for many people.

should it take border disputes etc. into consideration, if you're using it in country X and country X thinks a particular area belongs to them despite most of the world disagreeing will you not be able to use copilot to generate code that supports your remote employers international operations?

it would make better sense if Copilot had warnings it could issue and when you wanted gender put up some sort of warning about that - or allow you to choose binary gender / multi gender solutions.

The idea that it should fail, and that makes sense for it to do so is essentially a critique of the whole code generation idea.

on edit: obviously HN should be able to come up with lots of other things that might cause media related problems if CoPilot handled it, code to detect slurs, etc. etc.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#278

Post by dillondoyle »

Mo3 wrote: post #133
tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The backlash is already mounting. Is it? To me it feels like it's getting worse and worse, but that might be my bubble.

Quoted post unavailable.

Since when have LGBTQ people been seen as normal and like everyone else?

We've only had marriage for less than a decade and scotus could take that away; in many states it's still illegal i believe some constitutionally.

Not even going to try and touch on what most in here are up in arms about (gender, trans rights, race).

What children at age 6 are getting hormone blockers/therapy?

Just a quick search shows that standard treatment is not until puberty.

For a 'smart' forum that just seems like some basic common sense thrown out the window...

Why block or alter puberty that won't happen for years.

And even if some kids are getting their treatment at a younger age why are you making that your business?

Why are people angry about that?!

nd worse why are states passing laws to investigate doctors & parents for 'child abuse'? Do people really think some doctor or mad parent is just giving their kid hormones because they wanted a boy not a girl?

Trans kids have some of the (might be the highest) suicide rates of any group. Gender affirming and supportive care is widely established best practice. But so is abortion..

Why do people here feel like they should have the final say over the health of a child and families' medical decisions.

The answer seems obvious to me... And it's a sad one.

Plus who is forcing you to change 'core language concepts'?

Is it really a bridge too far to ask that we all be kind to one another?

Blatantly rejecting someone's identity to their face is minimally rude, sometimes malicious, and far too often violent at worst.

Why are SO many people on this thread so upset about this.

Comment er below makes a very good point about the violent consequences of these escalations.

Labeling people 'groomers' is not even trying to hide its intent. Sex predators are the one class of people most are ok with extrajudicial violence against. That's not an accident.

This is so frustrating, I just can't wrap my head around it.

The last few comments i've made on HN are just being disappointed with what should be an intelligent community.

So many comments here are just debased from reality and rejecting basic facts.

I've mostly stopped engaging on HN because these threads come up every other time i visit and it's just so maddening & frustrating to read.

I'll just end by saying I'm pretty young. Things were feeling optimistic.

But not anymore. I'm terrified for my future. I am thinking through self defense options & scenarios because there is a decent (and growing) possibility of violence against me and my community.

I'm lucky to live in a state which is very unlikely to pass laws revoking my rights. For now.. Won't stop SCOTUS though.

And most are not as privileged as I am.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#279

Post by dillondoyle »

magicalist wrote: post #191
Mo3 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

You lament people becoming extreme in their views above and then go full moral panic in this post. Maybe try to remember previous gay panics (or pick an alternate target group) that society has gone through in the past, remember what that ended up amounting to, and maybe reevaluate your media sources if you've suddenly been convinced groomers make up a large portion of the population.

The groomers thing is so scary... And clearly done with intent at scarily high levels of reach.

I feel increasingly unsafe and I live in a pretty liberal, decently big city.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#280

Post by mlyle »

throwaway290 wrote: post #264
pseudalopex wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never had a reason to call people ugly behind their backs. Calling Romani Romani not a word they don't like isn't dishonest, strange, or rude. I don't know anything about the birth genitals of most people I dine with.

Regarding calling Romani Romani, this can be a touchy subject, just as a heads-up. For years being asked where I'm from or being referred to as Russian, even without me present (e.g., I overheard or inferred people discussed this), made me uncomfortable. It's fading recently only because of the war and the overt hatred directed at me by nationality online making me more confrontational about it. I observe this happen…

I'm sorry that you've had to face prejudice. But hopefully a whole lot of discussion about your origin is more about idle curiosity than judgment. (And if you don't really want to talk about it, that's understandable and fine, too).

There's nothing wrong with being Russian. (Supporting Russia's position in the war, whether you're Russian or not, though... someone can have a problem with that).

We're all enriched when we share the best parts of our backgrounds and upbringings with each other.

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