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Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

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Re: Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

#271
post #178
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. It is a bullshit situation, and you should be mad about it. Employers have a responsibility to maximize the profits of their shareholders/investors. They are not there to be your friend, take care of you, or compensate you beyond the minimum that they have to. Companies that offer bonuses/'benefits' are doing so as an incentive to retain you. The minute the market indicates that they can pull any of those be…

> Employers have a responsibility to maximize the profits of their shareholders/investors. Somewhat shortsighted statement for this topic, considering the people they're harming here are employees who are... shareholders. > If it were human, it would be a sociopath. It may not be human, but they're ran by humans, and legally in many ways Corporations are people. In fact its a meme running in US politics lately. Peopl…

Have you ever watched a mob?

A corporation is a group of people. Like all groups of people there can be a mix of the full spectrum of humanity in varying percentages. Go to a protest or a concert, witness how groups of people react, especially when they are told to do something that no one wants to do. Corporations are run by people but you should not think that they are somehow different from groups of people and that group psychology somehow doesn't come into play.

Re: Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

#272
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

contract that says that I loose vesting on termination, and change it to all options become instantly vested on termination Curious which companies do that. Are you talking about 83(b) election, or were you really able to convince companies to instantly vest upon termination?

I rewrite the contract so that all options that have been granted but not vested, vest on termination. I was bite by this one and learned my lesson, I have also been bit by dilution, you pick these things up along the way. If they do not agree to vest on termination then we go back to salary negotiation or I walk. To me if they can terminate you and snatch back millions, it's just to big of a carrot to do so, as well…

"If they do not agree to vest on termination then we go back to salary negotiation or I walk."

So true. Expensive lesson for these folks.

Re: Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's pretty difficult to prove unless you are a protected minority and the boss shows up in a white robe and says "we are firing all the N.....s" or you fire a secretary after he/she refused to sleep with you AND you got the refusal in writing! Usually the employee only wins because the company messed up the paperwork.

The point is, it's not about the firing. It's about an employment contract which involved compensation while an employee was working, where the employer backed out of that later and terminated the employee to keep from paying what are effectively back wages. I am against suing to get one's job back, esp. here. However, suing to keep the unvested stock they took when dismissing you is a bigger deal. Here's the thing:…

Stock options vest in the future if you are still working there. The idea is that it keeps you committed - otherwise everybody cashes in on the day after an IPO and walks, and it rewards people who were the reason for the success.

You can't leave and then expect to get unvested options = otherwise people would simply sign up for every startup, stay a month and move on - then come back years later when the company is a success and ask for their million dollars.

It's abused when companies deliberately fire people before the options vest - this is relatively rare, since any sane company knows that getting rid of all your talent is a rather short term option.

This is what Oracle did when they took over Sun - they fired almost all of the VPs before the deal so they would have no share. In their case it was more justified, these people hadn't contributed to Suns future (it didn't have one) and weren't the reason for the Oracle takeover - there was no reason why they should gain from Oracle being in charge when the music stopped.

Re: Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL. Considering the employees are going to be challenging California's "at will" employment laws and the fact that the charges against the employees is performance based, how likely is #2 to have a fighting chance?

"At-will"?! I had no idea that in California you could just terminate employment for no reason. Coming from Australia where you can't fire anybody without good reason (even demoting people can be considered unfair dismissal) this just sounds insane.

I'm not an Australian employment lawyer (or any kind of lawyer for that matter), but I believe companies under a certain size are exempt from unfair dismissal laws.

Re: Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

#275
We have two option clawback stories in six months or so. These actions erode the trust relationship between entrepreneurs and the technical talent on which they depend. The expectation that startups will honor the options they give to the talent they hire is part of the social contract of the community. Reneging on that expectation will make talent wary of taking on the immense risk of working for or founding startups.

Re: Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

#277

Sometimes you just have to sue to enforce a contract and your rights. Many employees either don't realize this or they don't have the stomach for it. If you find yourself in this position, my advice is to play the game and see it through. 1. Don't resign, don't capitulate and hire a good lawyer immediately. If you don't have the cashflow, but are defending a huge pile of stock about to IPO you'll probably find a lawy…

What Zynga is doing is pretty repulsive, as I previously commented in a related thread (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3219437), but it is not accurate to say that "[t]hey have to fire you for cause for you to lose your options."

The overwhelming majority of employees at startups sign documentation acknowledging that their employment is at will and can be terminated at any time by either party for any reason, with or without cause. In relatively rare cases involving founders or high-placed executives, the company will sign contracts stating that, though the employment is at-will (i.e., can be terminated at any time for any reason without liability), the employee will get accelerated vesting of one sort or another in the event of a termination "without cause" or a resignation for "good reason." "Cause" is usually defined as willful failure or refusal to perform duties that continues after notice and an opportunity to cure, misappropriation or misuse of company trade secrets, commission of a felony or other action involving moral turpitude, etc. and "good reason" is typically defined as material reduction in compensation or duties, relocation to a remote area, etc. If you have an employment agreement that provides for such acceleration, then you are clearly protected against the Zynga-style threats described in this piece. If you do not, then you generally are not on firm legal footing but still may have some fighting chances.

What are those? If you can argue that an otherwise permissible at-will firing becomes impermissible because it is animated by discriminatory animus (race, sex, age, etc.), and you belong to a protected class, you could argue that the threatened firing is illegal and would subject the company to damages (which, of course, would include the value of the unvested stock that would otherwise have vested had the company not acted illegally to terminate your employment).

If you can argue that the ground of termination violates public policy, this might be a separate basis for claiming that the firing is illegal, notwithstanding that the employment relationship is at-will.

If you can argue that the company has given you implied promises that your employment would be for a certain duration, this also might take it out of the at-will category and give you fighting chances.

If you can argue that you were induced by fraudulent misrepresentations, e.g., to leave an existing employment based on the promise of equity compensation, or if the at-will language in your agreement is defectively implemented, or if any other ground might exist by which you can legally claim you got cheated or had some promise made to you breached, all this too can take this out of the pure at-will category as well and give you a basis for leverage.

To sum up, "cause" is not usually needed by an employer to terminate employment and recapture unvested equity. But you also by no means automatically lose just because your employment is at will. This is a complex area. With a lot at stake, it pays to get good legal advice to see if you can find a good angle by which to protect yourself.

A good legal case depends on legal rules that support it and, even more important, on good facts that motivate judges, juries, and anyone else looking at the case to want to go in a certain direction. Here, Zynga is providing all the good facts an employee needs to motivate people to want to slap them upside the head. That by itself is not enough. But if you find even one legal hook that gives you a sound basis upon which to attack what they are doing, then you can stand and fight. It is not easy, but sometimes you have no choice.

Re: Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"At-will"?! I had no idea that in California you could just terminate employment for no reason. Coming from Australia where you can't fire anybody without good reason (even demoting people can be considered unfair dismissal) this just sounds insane.

I'm not an Australian employment lawyer (or any kind of lawyer for that matter), but I believe companies under a certain size are exempt from unfair dismissal laws.

I may be wrong, but I think that was wound back as part of WorkChoices being repealed.

Re: Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

#279

Sometimes you just have to sue to enforce a contract and your rights. Many employees either don't realize this or they don't have the stomach for it. If you find yourself in this position, my advice is to play the game and see it through. 1. Don't resign, don't capitulate and hire a good lawyer immediately. If you don't have the cashflow, but are defending a huge pile of stock about to IPO you'll probably find a lawy…

What Zynga is doing is pretty repulsive, as I previously commented in a related thread ( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3219437 ), but it is not accurate to say that "[t]hey have to fire you for cause for you to lose your options." The overwhelming majority of employees at startups sign documentation acknowledging that their employment is at will and can be terminated at any time by either party for any reason,…

Thanks for weighing in on this in such detail. Valuable insight.

Re: Zynga to employees: Give back our stock or you'll be fired

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is, it's not about the firing. It's about an employment contract which involved compensation while an employee was working, where the employer backed out of that later and terminated the employee to keep from paying what are effectively back wages. I am against suing to get one's job back, esp. here. However, suing to keep the unvested stock they took when dismissing you is a bigger deal. Here's the thing:…

Stock options vest in the future if you are still working there. The idea is that it keeps you committed - otherwise everybody cashes in on the day after an IPO and walks, and it rewards people who were the reason for the success. You can't leave and then expect to get unvested options = otherwise people would simply sign up for every startup, stay a month and move on - then come back years later when the company is…

Here you aren't choosing to leave though. The company is paying you less and offering stock options, and then firing you solely so they can take those back as a deliberate policy.

With Sun and Oracle, at least the case could be made that the VP's would have been redundant during the reorganization process. But it's different from saying "Hey, give up the stock options or you are fired."

I think it's that point where you have arguable contract claims.

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