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Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

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Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#271

Post by Teknoman117 »

In addition to the pay aspects many have mentioned here, I think another huge problem is accessibility of the knowledge and the ability to practice it early on.

My experience in becoming a professional software engineer started when my parents got me hooked on computer programming as child. Computers weren't nearly as cheap when I was a kid as they are now (90s and 00s), but writing random software was mostly just limited by my imagination. All but the most advanced concepts could be experimented with on a laptop.

EE and hardware design is so much harder to access. The software is very expensive and the open source versions are very limited in comparison (I love Kicad but it's no Altium). Protocols for anything you'll find in consumer devices is locked down behind tons of fees, NDAs, etc. Parts are locked down in the same way. No one will talk to you unless you want to order tens of thousands of components at a time.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#272

Post by dougabug »

est31 wrote: post #77
georgeburdell wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the question is why? Shouldn’t there be the same race to single digit margins in software as well?

There will be, but right now software is eating the world (and establishing entire new markets) faster than developer talent enters the market. So prices for developers go up. Eventually this will end, either by the demand curve slowing down, or developer supply meeting demand. Whether it happens within the next 5 or 10, or even 20 years, who knows.

This saturation of demand for software talent has been predicted for literally decades. In 1992, Ed Yourdon published “Decline and Fall of the American Programmer,” only to reverse himself four years later with the publication of “Rise and Resurrection of the American Programmer.”

If anything, the rate at which capable software professionals can create value has dramatically increased over time. Software is not a zero sum game, cumulative advances make it possible to solve an expanding frontier of problems with increasingly effective and efficient solutions.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#273

Post by Gibbon1 »

imtringued wrote: post #266
boppo1 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It makes no sense. Why is web software so easy to make money in? Why do we value hard engineering so little? Interest rate intervention (making them lower than equilibrium) changed the DCF valuation that is the fundamental way of evaluating business (i.e. people working together on large endeavors) to one where promising massive returns in the future(20+ years) made low returns in the near term (x now had to adjust…

>Interest rate intervention (making them lower than equilibrium) changed the DCF valuation that is the fundamental way of evaluating business According to the Friedman rule the optimal interest rate is 0%.

I'll add that to my long list of stuff he didn't understand cause he was a dummy.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#274

Post by t-3 »

insightcheck wrote: post #37
simmerup wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're right. It's my suspicion that eventually software engineers will be paid the same as copy writers and scientists. But not yet.

I was initially going to disagree that copywriters get paid in the same range as scientists, but the numbers in the US are roughly similar from the Bureau of Labor Statistics and Indeed. -Indeed average copywriter annual pay [0] is $54,998 USD, versus a staff scientist's [1] at $69,091 USD -BLS median copywriter pay for 2021 [2] was $69,510 USD, versus a medical scientist's [3] at $95,310 USD I'm surprised that the m…

> In addition, I would've guessed that the median copywriter salary would have been far lower, as my perception was that there is a far greater supply of candidates for copywriter jobs than scientist jobs in the US (maybe this is offset by fewer scientist positions?)

Probably, but given that ~20% of Americans are functionally illiterate, while ~40% have a college degree, the supplies might not be too different. Reading and writing are also skills which are neither prestigious nor especially lucrative, while scientists of any kind are esteemed pretty highly.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#275

Post by Taniwha »

Johnythree wrote: post #30
0x20cowboy wrote: post #9

I loved tinkering with electronics when I was younger - still do to a smaller degree. I built my first computer by fixing some blown capacitors on a motherboard I found in the trash. Back in the day, lots of products came with schematics, now you might get a lawsuit if you dare to take something apart. It was way easier to take apart and tweak through hole components too - now everything is surface mount or on chip a…

I find SMT easier than through-hole. And I say B.S. to your line of "rewire a stereo to broadcast instead of receive". There's very little commonality between a stereo and a Transmitter. Whatever, there are still thousands of Hams building Transmitters.

I teach kids how to solder at the local Makerspace, I start with SMT first because it's easier - through hole requires more skill and you have to be more aware of heat management to do it well.

We stockpile old proto boards that were never used for practice and give the kids old motherboards and hot air to scavenge from for practice

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#276

Post by [deleted] »

Ekaros wrote: post #221
supertrope wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supply and demand is a cruel mistress. If power electronics could scale up to hundreds of millions of customers with relatively flat headcount and capital intensity you might see unicorns too.

Or they don't extract enough from the market. Maybe they should be getting 50% of electricity price.

[deleted]

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#277

Post by yobbo »

killjoywashere wrote: post #119

EE spent so many years making sure everyone knew it's impossibly hard, the professors eat their young, etc. I've seen this in other professions where the incumbents desperately want to impose, in actuality, the uphill-both-ways life story they believe they endured. And then they are shocked when the young peace out. The military, and their insanely rigorous special warfare training. The medical profession in general.…

If there was lack of supply and excess demand, it would show in higher pay.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#278

Post by isbvhodnvemrwvn »

mathattack wrote: post #211

If there’s such a shortage why aren’t EEs paid more than CS grads?

They don't deliver value as rapidly as devs do. Hardware has massive lead time and substantial pre-production costs, can't possibly compete with iteration rate of pure software.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#279

Post by stinos »

ChrisRR wrote: post #252
nebula8804 wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget low level embedded programmers, Kernel developers, and many who live in the world of coding in C/ASM. I recall numerous instances in my undergraduate career where professors and the students passionate in these fields would actively persuade people who didn't get exposes to the stuff from even trying. I remember one professor teaching an elective class on the Linux kernel and how he would try his best to…

We are currently having a hell of a time trying to hire embedded developers We're looking for bare metal developers so basic SPI, I2C, UART knowledge is essential, but even in that realm it's surprising how many embedded devs can't work outside of an RTOS and lack basic hardware knowledge

We are currently having a hell of a time trying to hire embedded developers

In my opinion that is essentially almost the same problem, though depending on the university/courses followed. To be able to program bare metal one needs some knowledge of bare metal, which is what an EE has. To be able to program one also needs some programming knowledge, which most EEs have. However if you take a 'standard' software engineer then they often only have a clue about the latter.

Re: Electrical engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems

#280

Post by pjc50 »

retcon wrote: post #260
nebula8804 wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget low level embedded programmers, Kernel developers, and many who live in the world of coding in C/ASM. I recall numerous instances in my undergraduate career where professors and the students passionate in these fields would actively persuade people who didn't get exposes to the stuff from even trying. I remember one professor teaching an elective class on the Linux kernel and how he would try his best to…

I don't know when I first heard students boasting about these scare away intro lectures [0] but it was noticeable by the early eighties. I've a few unsubstantiated hypotheses why: Zero Sum Game taught by boomer parents conscious that the party was already over but would be sustained inevitably with increasing ruthlessness.[1] Intellectual Property laws started slicing and dicing knowledge that became temporarily more…

I don't think it needs a big society explanation. I think it's a small scale machismo problem. People love gatekeeping fields: hobbies, fandoms, sports. Especially if it has in the past got flack for being "uncool".
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