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The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

blog.pragmaticengineer.com

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Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#271

Post by aix1 »

vasco wrote: post #211

My proposition is that in Europe, if you're making tier 3 salaries, your life is actually shit. You're working for American companies with shitty work life balances, "we're making the world a better place" hellholes that layoff hundreds of people whenever there's a chance. Working full remote for a nice European company with proper work life balance and tier 2 salaries is way better.

Is that proposition based on experience or conjecture?

I can offer the following data point. I work for one of those American companies (Google) based in Europe (Zürich) and I've never had better work-life balance in my 25-year career. If anything, I now have much more control of where I'm located, how frequently and for how long I come into the office, which hours I do and don't work etc than I've ever had. I basically have full flexibility in how I arrange my work around my life.

My only slight grumble is that I only get 25 days' annual leave instead of the 30 days I got at a previous location (same company). For reference, the legal requirement in Switzerland is 20.

> layoff hundreds of people whenever there's a chance

It may come as a surprise, but all those companies are still subject to labour laws of the countries in which they operate.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#272

Post by brtkdotse »

faangguyindia wrote: post #200
Dove wrote: post #66

I found this fascinatingly counterintuitive. I would normally expect that a broader market leads to lower prices for commodity goods. If I can only buy candy from the vendor at the movie theater, I expect to pay a higher price than if I can buy it from all the stores in the region, which I expect to be higher again than if I can import it from anywhere in the world. The reverse is true for developers? The companies w…

I'd like to point out that FAANG high salary in US is cost of engaging brilliant minds who otherwise might work on competing products. For example, FAANG in India pays 10x local salary of an average dev in India. A guy with skills who who makes 5x-10x local salary in India will not be available on freelance market simply because he neither is going to paid well for the time spent there vs social recognition for the e…

> In Europe, it's much difficult to start a company and people aren't of typical mindset to jump start a company into global dominance.

This is such a tired meme. It’s _orders of magnitude_ easier to start at company in a lot of European countries compared to the US.

Creation process is in a lot of cases filling in a web form, paying €100 and waiting a week or two (yes, yes, in know it not like that everywhere).

Furthermore, your health care is not tied to your employer which makes starting a company a lot less risky.

Is it easier to start a company poised for world dominance? No idea, but I do know it’s easier to start a small, sustainable business.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#273

Post by Aachen »

I understood category 1, but that's where the author lost me.

1: "Companies only benchmarking against their local competition". So indeed a local dev shop will compete against other local dev shops. Or a supermarket against other supermarkets nearby, this makes sense.

2: "Companies benchmarking against all local companies, even if they are not direct competitors". I understand the meaning of these words, but the examples don't compete with all local companies. Disney Streaming is globally competing against other streaming services, not competing against a local supermarket.

And then category 3 is somehow competing regionally or globally (against all companies) instead of locally, but again I don't see the example GitLab doing anything different from Disney Streaming: both compete globally in their tech niche.

If an architect job next door pays double, what do category 2|3 companies care?

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#274

Post by sealeck »

yrgulation wrote: post #62
988747 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree that this isn't likely to be true at population level - I was talking about Software Developers specifically. Disagree on "much higher standard of education" - even if Austria comes on top, it's just barely, not by a lot.

I dont know where op gets their stats but pay in austria is by no means competitive. I know of a romanian dude who interviewed for a company there. Pompous session, ties, suit and the stench of a rigid hierarchy. Once they made their offer he laughed and told them he’d earn twice as much for the same (tech) job in romania. Perhaps an isolated case but DACH countries have an inflated sense of superiority not matching…

If you look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_... it's pretty clear that the average monthly salary in Austria (adjusted for purchasing power parity) is roughly 2x that in Poland.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#275

Post by Aachen »

Aachen wrote: post #273

I understood category 1, but that's where the author lost me. 1: "Companies only benchmarking against their local competition". So indeed a local dev shop will compete against other local dev shops. Or a supermarket against other supermarkets nearby, this makes sense. 2: "Companies benchmarking against all local companies, even if they are not direct competitors". I understand the meaning of these words, but the exam…

While re-reading and revising the question, maybe I found the answer myself: the author doesn't mean all companies in the region when they say "all companies" (emphasis theirs), they mean that for job X (like developer), a supermarket is not trying to hire developers from other countries or continents. It's about the size of the pool of people that can do this job, not whom a company competes against with their product or service. Supposedly Disney doesn't hire globally just like the local supermarket whereas GitLab does.

Why one would and the other wouldn't for the same type of job sounds like just a measure of wealth (a local supermarket wouldn't be able to pay for someone's relocation and competitive salary with other places in the world they could have gone to, and according to the author, Disney doesn't either), making this whole classification seem to get causality backwards. It's not that you earn more there because they're hiring in a broader pool in their greater desperation to attract more talent, it's that one simply pays more because they have more money in the bank to pay out, and that allows them to hire from a broader pool. In a good case, that then also attracts the better talent to keep up that greater money inflow.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#276

Post by sealeck »

V-2 wrote: post #99
sealeck wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is likely to be true at a population level; Austria is a much richer country than Poland; has a much higher standard of education and in other sectors salaries are usually higher in Austria than Poland.

What exactly implies Austria has a "much higher standard of education" than Poland? For example in the most recent PISA rating the average score of mathematics, science and reading is 513 for Poland (11th in the world) and 491 for Austria (28th place).

Sorry, perhaps I should have said, people in Austria are less over educated (i.e. at the same education level Austrians earn more than Poles).

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#277

Post by vocram »

ricardobayes wrote: post #264
splittingTimes wrote: post #158

Humanities supposedly most brilliant minds work on the next e-billing system, AI on how to sell more crap that nobody really needs, keep a glorified message board afloat or enable the cancer that is advertisment. They should work on how to address the climate catastrophe, the waste/recycling problem, food security, sustainable agriculture and land/water use, medical devices/health care or how to fix the broken partic…

My goal is to reach financial independence ASAP so I can contribute my effort 100% to something that matters.

What you would put 100% of your effort on, if you had FIREd?

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#278

Post by Aeolun »

I have serious issues moving to the Netherlands due to this.

Based on this article, I’d be at the top end of the #2 range.

I easily get offers from the #1 range, but they’re so low it’s pointless. #2 seems to rather hire candidates that are already local.

#3 requires me to do a song and dance that might ultimately be worth it, but sickens me. Maybe I’ll eventually find a #3 that doesn’t require the silly hoop jumps.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#279

Post by Aeolun »

brtkdotse wrote: post #272
faangguyindia wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to point out that FAANG high salary in US is cost of engaging brilliant minds who otherwise might work on competing products. For example, FAANG in India pays 10x local salary of an average dev in India. A guy with skills who who makes 5x-10x local salary in India will not be available on freelance market simply because he neither is going to paid well for the time spent there vs social recognition for the e…

> In Europe, it's much difficult to start a company and people aren't of typical mindset to jump start a company into global dominance. This is such a tired meme. It’s _orders of magnitude_ easier to start at company in a lot of European countries compared to the US. Creation process is in a lot of cases filling in a web form, paying €100 and waiting a week or two (yes, yes, in know it not like that everywhere). Furt…

It’s certainly not easy to start a company posied for world dominance when a lot of local laws and culture prevent you from working your employees to the bone.

The average workweek in the Netherlands is 28 hours a week. You may shift this if you are a startup, but culture is certainly something that affects your propensity to generate unicorns.

Re: The trimodal nature of software salaries in the Netherlands and Europe (2021)

#280

Post by Aeolun »

kortilla wrote: post #220
sidlls wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “webdev” kind of person you’re talking about likely doesn’t have the same education as even a relatively unskilled “enterprise Java dev.” I think you’re overselling the complexity of using the tooling at FAANG type companies. The tech is complex, but a tiny fraction of the company actually works on that stuff.

What are you talking about? They have exactly the same education as an “enterprise Java dev”. It’s someone who ties their professional career to one language and one use-case.

I’m inclined to believe that the enterprise Java dev can get away with knowing much less. Basically being a master of their domain, which incredibly valuable to the company they’re at, and not at all to the market as a whole.
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