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Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

science.org

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Re: Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

#271

Post by corsac »

ssnistfajen wrote: post #226
ls15 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lactase persistence is regulated by genetic mutations, not gut microbes. > Koreans eat lots of fermented vegetables, yet why are 70%-100% of Koreans estimated to be lactose intolerant? On the other hand, there is Mongolia: > But a closer look at cultural practices around the world has challenged that picture. In modern Mongolia, for example, traditional herders get more than a third of their calories from dairy pro…

So how exactly does the diet of Mongolians prove lactase persistence is not fundamentally genetic? Lactose intolerance isn't something like celiacs where a dash of the substance causes adverse reactions. Most of Asia still sell non-lactose-free dairy in supermarkets. Look up any Youtube video of Korean street foods and you will see dairy products such as processed cheese, yogurt, mil, and ice cream are ubiquitous in…

Koreans don't get a third of their calories from dairy products, though. Whereas if Mongolians get ~30% of their calories from dairy on average (which is credible), that would mean they are getting far more than that in summer, since dairy consumption is largely seasonal. We're talking prodigious amounts by the standards of any culture, not a dash. That consumption includes both significant unfermented dairy (milk, milk tea, clotted cream) and dairy products fermented in a wide variety of ways.

Are lactose intolerance symptoms widespread among Mongolians? If not, and if Mongolians are really genetically lactose intolerant, then it is worth asking whether the fermented dairy foods (as opposed to kimchi) they consume are mitigating that intolerance.

Re: Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

#272

Post by sol_invictus »

Agamus wrote: post #270
mulmen wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider my comment as feedback from an editor to the author. I don’t think this is fit to print. I agree with you. This could be an interesting topic. But the article provides no substantive information. Anything that is learned will be in spite of this article, not because of it. What you describe is the potential that I maintain this article fails to live up to. > It's a very interesting observation in my opinion…

I'm not trying to be snarky, and while I largely agree with you, I feel like I'm missing something. Are you saying that the only time that it is 'fit to print' something about this topic is when we have arrived at the conclusion, and are ready to present objective facts? Or, perhaps we shouldn't print speculation about interesting topics unless we have the answers to the questions being discussed? Or, print should be…

OP understands neither science nor complex systems. Science is never ”ready” so by their logic nothing would ever get published, and something as integral to human ”system” as the gut microbiome being reduced to half can have dramatic nonlinear effects to health, making an alarmist approach 100% valid

Re: Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

#273

Post by colordrops »

asdff wrote: post #45

Pretty much every culture around the world 100 years ago had some staple fermented food. Nowadays, a lot of people in western culture at least outright refuse yogurt or other fermented foods like saurkraut or pickled cabbage that used to be staples in these people's ancestor's diets a few generations ago. People are becoming even lactose intolerant. You have to fertilize your microbes so to speak and eat these sorts…

Fermented foods are important. Milk-based foods, not so much. There's a reason most people are lactose intolerant - milk is to grow baby cows into large animals, and not suitable for consumption by adult humans.

Re: Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

#274

Post by moistly »

moistly wrote: post #189
wheelerof4te wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of both iron and vitamin B in plant-based food. You really believe we hunted big game so much? With what? Sticks and stones? How did we catch them with our weak legs? How the hell did we skin them or eat their raw flesh? Cooking wasn't a thing for a long time. And why don't we eat the animal meat raw? Don't you love it when you see the dead, rotting carcas all open and blody? I sure don't. And neither would yo…

> You really believe we hunted big game so much? I mean there’s proof we hunted dinosaurs to extinction, so yah, we hunted down all the big game. Indians hunted bison, most everyone hunted elk and deer, humanity grew up on meat. Edit: Eskimo hunting freakin’ whales, every Nat Geo special on tribal peoples show them hunting for daily meat, arrowheads and napping knives and spears found in ancient caves…

It’s a shame that HN doesn’t recognize a joke answer to a statement as silly as “do you really believe we hunted big game.”

Re: Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

#275

Post by lcnPylGDnU4H9OF »

sol_invictus wrote: post #272
Agamus wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not trying to be snarky, and while I largely agree with you, I feel like I'm missing something. Are you saying that the only time that it is 'fit to print' something about this topic is when we have arrived at the conclusion, and are ready to present objective facts? Or, perhaps we shouldn't print speculation about interesting topics unless we have the answers to the questions being discussed? Or, print should be…

OP understands neither science nor complex systems. Science is never ”ready” so by their logic nothing would ever get published, and something as integral to human ”system” as the gut microbiome being reduced to half can have dramatic nonlinear effects to health, making an alarmist approach 100% valid

> OP understands neither science nor complex systems.

This seems like an uncharitable take. I can't imagine how an alarmist approach is "100% valid" when there are not any known problems caused by this. The article is only stating that living in urban environments is correlated with a decrease (by A Lot) in gut microbes. Even if it is true that a significant decrease in gut microbes is a Bad Thing, the article does not argue that well. Indeed, it seems to intend to argue that with little or no substance.

> Consider [OP's] comment as feedback from an editor to the author.

If the comments are just criticisms about the content in the article then they seem apt. Many of the points hold up when I am critical about the article's arguments. It's possible to argue that position and also be in favor of publishing this information.

Re: Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

#277

Post by corsac »

colordrops wrote: post #273
asdff wrote: post #45

Pretty much every culture around the world 100 years ago had some staple fermented food. Nowadays, a lot of people in western culture at least outright refuse yogurt or other fermented foods like saurkraut or pickled cabbage that used to be staples in these people's ancestor's diets a few generations ago. People are becoming even lactose intolerant. You have to fertilize your microbes so to speak and eat these sorts…

Fermented foods are important. Milk-based foods, not so much. There's a reason most people are lactose intolerant - milk is to grow baby cows into large animals, and not suitable for consumption by adult humans.

> milk is to grow baby cows into large animals

Whence this transcendent purpose that limits suitability? Likewise, quinoa grains are to grow into full-sized plants, and not for consumption by humans, etc. etc.

Most people may be "lactose intolerant", but some of them find ways to survive and thrive on milk-based foods; meanwhile, some populations have developed tolerance to lactose, presumably because milk-based foods are important.

Re: Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

#278

Post by Terry_Roll »

ssnistfajen wrote: post #208
Terry_Roll wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Are you conflating fluoride and chlorine? Or are you gulping water down your throat at swimming pools? If it's the latter then you really should stop doing that.

No post body was provided.

Re: Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

#279

Post by epgui »

deepstack wrote: post #246
moistly wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are a symbiote.

Bingo, we are just bunch of bacteria walking around. Some organism become symbiotic over time like mitochondria, so it go incorporated into our cells to make energy. The whole concept that we as human-being is one organism needs to be revisited.

This is already understood, it's not like scientists aren't aware.

The simplified concept of humans being one organism will continue to be taught nonetheless, because it's extremely useful, and not even wrong in most contexts in which it's applied.

There's nothing special about this, you can say the same thing about any simple model in biology: that the brain is an organ inside the head is a simplification, any diagram of a homeostatic system or metabolic pathway that fits on a single page is a simplification, the "central dogma" of DNA -> RNA -> protein is a simplification...

All of these things are well-known. They continue to be used as models, because, well... they're useful models. And there's nothing wrong with that!

Re: Modern city dwellers have lost about half their gut microbes

#280

Post by epgui »

monocasa wrote: post #24
bejelentkezni wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is that supposed to mean?

That it's certainly a valid thought with the information we have, and is being thought about, but requires further investigation to make an affirmative statement.

^ This is the best explanation of what I meant.
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