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Consciousness is not computation

joe-antognini.github.io

271–280 of 767 posts

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#271
post #205

I find this argument completely unconvincing. The mapping in a case like the iron bar is entirely ephemeral, pertaining only for an instant. For this argument to be valid you’d have to be able to persistently map the iron bar, or waterfall, to all ongoing transformations of states in the running program, using one single consistent mapping. Otherwise all you have is a snapshot of state, not an ongoing process. To ach…

The iron bar argument is terrible for exactly the reason you say. The atoms in the iron bar would have to evolve following the rules of a Turing machine and they won't. So you'd have to define a mapping which varies over time. There's nothing stopping us doing that but I can do the same with a pumpkin and my brain. Therefore I'm not conscious. Sad!

I think you are conscious, and so is the combination of iron bar and crazy complex mapping. In the latter case, the crazy complex mapping does all the work and in some sense _is_ conscious.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it not? Quantum Mechanics and quantum field theory applies everywhere except for the black holes. Human can even harness the power by building quantum computer by that. So here you tried to deny the exist of quantum computing paradigm, a completely different computation approach?

No, I am not denying anything. My point is this: say an electron emits a photon and changes speed, in perfect accordance to the standard model and QFT. I don't think it makes sense to say that the electron "computed" the energy of the photon, or its own change of speed. It just happened, there was no computation going on here. Even in a CPU, it doesn't make sense to say that the transistors, or even logical gates, ar…

I think the argument is more that the electron and photon are subjective interpretations of the observable consequence of some computation, not that they are computing things in and of themselves.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#273
post #3

I think people start with the premise that consciousness is a specific “thing”, that it is unique and special to humans (and maybe dogs because we like them but definitely not spiders and flies because we don’t) and then try to work backwards to define it in some ways that keeps it special. I don’t think consciousness is so specific, and I think people aren’t clear about how they think about it as something separate…

I've recently been enjoying thinking of GPT-3 utterances as creating short-lived consciousnesses for the length of an interaction. There's no consciousness during training (just filling in the blanks...) but when we interact with it in a generative fashion, there is - depending on your prompt - a somewhat coherent 'I' that is invoked, and maintained over the course of the conversation. Seeing as I have no strong claim on a strict definition of consciousness, Imma gonna go ahead and call it conscious.

the thing is, this is /commoditized/ consciousness, which can be spun up and discarded at will, a million times a minute. Totally incapable of coordination or planning, in contrast to, say, SkyNet. The future is usually weirder than we imagine.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#274
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, since an extremely advanced ML algorithm wouldn't want to go about proving to itself that it is not what it is, that would be prima facie evidence against, no? This seems like begging the question. Who says an extremely advanced ML algorithm can't 'want' to do this? What even is wanting? > I mean in practice we don't find this too hard right now if the other person is reasonable—a 15-minute conversation usual…

> Who says an extremely advanced ML algorithm can't 'want' to do this? What even is wanting? I believe this is the real question about consciousness. If a being were to be conscious but it had no desires, no wishes, not even a will to keep itself alive... it wouldn't bother to do anything... i.e. it would behave exactly like a rock, or anything non-conscious. Having desires, wishes, and should I say, emotions... is a…

A loss function, perhaps?

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#275
post #243

> But! If a single observer can correctly determine that the bar of iron is conscious, we must conclude that the bar of iron is conscious for everybody, because consciousness is observer independent. If true, honest-to-God consciousness is just a matter of running consciousness.exe, we have indeed found someone who has correctly observed that the bar of iron is running consciousness.exe and we must conclude that the…

You don't need to know all that much in order to achieve consciousness. Lets say that you have a program that you assume to be conscious. You run it for 1 second, and exactly record all its internal states and outputs. Now, you can find an interpretation of the iron bar that shows that the iron bar casually and deterministically went through those exact same states for a full 1 second. What is the difference between…

Why attribute conscious experiences to the iron bar, when we have a system composed of the iron bar and the interpreter? The bar functions as a very inefficient clock that allows the interpreter to go thru motions originally produced by the conscious program.

I bite the bullet and say that the system is conscious while it's playing the recorded states (with a caveat that it cannot interact with anything, unlike the program), and stop being conscious afterwards, unlike the program.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#276
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The iron bar argument is terrible for exactly the reason you say. The atoms in the iron bar would have to evolve following the rules of a Turing machine and they won't. So you'd have to define a mapping which varies over time. There's nothing stopping us doing that but I can do the same with a pumpkin and my brain. Therefore I'm not conscious. Sad!

I think you are conscious, and so is the combination of iron bar and crazy complex mapping. In the latter case, the crazy complex mapping does all the work and in some sense _is_ conscious.

Right, if you were to compute the mapping in real time on a computer, that would be conscious but it's really got nothing to do with the actual iron bar.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#277
post #205

I find this argument completely unconvincing. The mapping in a case like the iron bar is entirely ephemeral, pertaining only for an instant. For this argument to be valid you’d have to be able to persistently map the iron bar, or waterfall, to all ongoing transformations of states in the running program, using one single consistent mapping. Otherwise all you have is a snapshot of state, not an ongoing process. To ach…

In other words, the momentary state of the hot iron bar is just a piece of syntax that by coincidence looks like a momentary state of consciousness.exe. But it lacks the semantics of continuing to the next state of consciousness.exe. Like Antognini says, syntax is not semantics!

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#278
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Author here.) > Do you believe that a hot bar of iron is a computer? This is the crux of it. The main objection to the triviality argument is that we've just used far too broad a definition of a "computer." If we're thinking that a hot iron bar is a computer, then this should suggest to us that it's the definition that's wrong. You are correct in saying that if the definition we use is wrong, the whole triviality ar…

Is empty space also a computer, because while we might naively interpret it as "all zeros", with the proper location and time-dependent mapping, it can be seen to be running Doom?

Exactly this. You can encode a computer anywhere, given your own definition of "computer".

Getting your computer to compute, there's the rub.

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#279
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a little bit of an emotional take I think. The burden of proof is on the claim that you can get there through computation, not otherwise. We do not understand the fundamental reality of consciousness, this does not mean that consciousness is magic. The assertion that you cannot get there from computation implies there is a currently non understood yet essential piece of physics(I assume, but I do not know) wh…

I disagree about where the burden of proof lies. If we start off firstly with the assumption that humans have consciousness, and secondly the decently supported claim that animals exhibit what to us appears to be consciousness on a spectrum, and thirdly that we don't exactly know how or why consciousness exists, then the conclusion that seems obvious to me is that we cannot rule out that it could emerge in a network…

I think it’s important to note that the article isn’t saying that if you build a brain-like thing, it can’t be conscious. It’s arguing that if you simulate a brain-like thing purely in software it can’t be conscious. I’m not saying one argument has more merit than the other (not that anyone is going to be able to prove anything is conscious either way).

Re: Consciousness is not computation

#280
post #3

I think people start with the premise that consciousness is a specific “thing”, that it is unique and special to humans (and maybe dogs because we like them but definitely not spiders and flies because we don’t) and then try to work backwards to define it in some ways that keeps it special. I don’t think consciousness is so specific, and I think people aren’t clear about how they think about it as something separate…

Consciousness can be infinitely explored and described, but it can't really be defined through naturalistic science. A definition is created from the end of something. We can identify the length, breadth, horsepower and coolant capacity of a car, because all those things end somewhere. We can't consciously perceive an end to consciousness, as we'd be dead and the people who have lost consciousness are "dead" or "asleep". A definition is a tool for consciousness to use, not something it is subject to. Yet we all know what the word means and what we're talking about when it's discussed.

We can map out consciousness and explore it's internal productions. We can think about how we think about consciousness and examine scientific damage to consciousness-related structures like the brain. We could ultimately know what it Means to be conscious, given enough time, defined or not.

>Why? Starting with this assumption and searching for reasons it might be true is clear motivated reasoning.

The idea that you can get consciousness from natural materialism has been disproven many times. You can't get "ought from is" from materialism or define consciousness from nature or technology. So what is "clear" about it?

The metaphor of the most advanced technology of the time as the mechanism of the brain/mind/consciousness has been done to death. People used to posit that we were automatons with pistons inside our skull. So what is the "motivated reasoning"?

The idea that human consciousness IS the technology of the day, is a basic metaphorical tool with no correlates to material reality. People used to suppose we were automatons with pistons inside our skull.

It encourages people to think only like programmers, or mechanics, or engineers and cuts them off from asking any real questions. What they believe about a topic, or what it means. Which ultimately leaves them open to following the opinionated dictates of whoever is guiding the discussion. Even for the smartest physicists, engineers and technologists; the hunches, the ideas, the gambles they put their career on, are theologically and philosophically informed. People believe their career choices, their pet physical theory is right, their programming language is right, which is not based on a naturally formed consciousness.

It is better to talk about this than not, and the disengagement with philosophy leads people to parroting the same millennia-old ideas some dead philosopher figured out and now people are repeating blindly and getting the same predictable results without knowing so. If a philosopher only needed to be insightful, he would have half the job. It's dangerous to go without.

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