Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts • Hacker News Board

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#271

Post by BitwiseFool » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 10:49 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #260

gorwell wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's what the book says, "Sometimes they're called Nazis. Other times, they're the far-right or alt-right. White Nationalists. No matter the name, hateful groups are spewing vile, racist, anti-immigrant, anti-POC, anti-LGBTQ+, anti-anything-but-white-Christian-views ideologies. SCREW THAT. ALWAYS PUNCH NAZIS".

What is your objection to that passage? Most Nazis today do not call themselves "Nazis" because almost everyone agrees the Nazis were the bad guys. That is all that passage is saying. Saying sometimes Nazis go by "the far-right" is not the saying all far-right people are Nazis. You are the one reading "hateful groups are spewing vile, racist, anti-immigrant, anti-POC, anti-LGBTQ+, anti-anything-but-white-Christian-vi…

The way I read the passage, merely holding any position perceived by them as "racist, anti-immigrant, anti-POC, anti-LGBTQ+, anti-anything-but-white-Christian-views ideologies" constitutes Nazism - regardless of whatever term you may choose. Therefore, holding such views rightfully subjects you to well-deserved violence.

Given that most conservatives hold positions that are perceived by the nazi punching crowd as one or more of those evil stances above, I feel like the concern is genuine. Emphasis on perceived, because there is a tendency to exaggerate just how "anti" such stances are.

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#272

Post by s1artibartfast » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 10:50 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #249

s1artibartfast wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say that milo ect were typical or that I agree with them. I said that the idea was about labeling conservatives in general as nazis and justifying violence. I don't agree with the idea that you get to punch someone in the face if you disagree with them, even if you label them as a fascist

> I said that the idea was about labeling conservatives in general as nazis and justifying violence. But these aren’t “conservatives in general”. These are people who are at the very least fascist sympathizers. No one serious is calling Mitt Romney a nazi.

Anyone can call anyone a Nazi. The question is whether someone can make an individual determination that they think another person is a fascist, and whether this is a legitimate moral defense of extra judicial violence. Do individuals or groups have a moral right to judge others and carryout violence outside of the legal system

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#273

Post by BitwiseFool » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 11:05 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #270

BitwiseFool wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>" No one serious is calling Mitt Romney a nazi." It happened a lot more often back in 2012 when he was running for President.

And plenty of people today call Joe Biden a communist. Yet if someone has a "Punch a Communist" bumper sticker, I'm not going to call up the Secret Service saying someone is threatening the president because I know that name-calling is inherently unserious. Meanwhile Richard Spencer's Wikipedia page starts with "Richard Bertrand Spencer (born May 1978) is an American neo-Nazi..." It is entirely fair to call that guy…

>"I know that name-calling is inherently unserious."

But I must beg the question, if society normalizes and encourages violence against Nazis, doesn't that mean that calling someone a Nazi is a potentially serious act? And, what if they aren't really a Nazi?

The term "stochastic terrorism" has been discussed and I believe it applies here. This is the definition I pulled from dicitonary.com: "the public demonization of a person or group resulting in the incitement of a violent act, which is statistically probable but whose specifics cannot be predicted"

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#274

Post by slg » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 11:10 PM UTC

BitwiseFool wrote: post #271

slg wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your objection to that passage? Most Nazis today do not call themselves "Nazis" because almost everyone agrees the Nazis were the bad guys. That is all that passage is saying. Saying sometimes Nazis go by "the far-right" is not the saying all far-right people are Nazis. You are the one reading "hateful groups are spewing vile, racist, anti-immigrant, anti-POC, anti-LGBTQ+, anti-anything-but-white-Christian-vi…

The way I read the passage, merely holding any position perceived by them as "racist, anti-immigrant, anti-POC, anti-LGBTQ+, anti-anything-but-white-Christian-views ideologies" constitutes Nazism - regardless of whatever term you may choose. Therefore, holding such views rightfully subjects you to well-deserved violence. Given that most conservatives hold positions that are perceived by the nazi punching crowd as one…

You edited "hateful groups are spewing vile..." out of the beginning of that quote which is important because even if people "exaggerate just how "anti" such stances are", there is still a difference between an anti stance and a hateful and vile stance. It isn't talking about opposing affirmative action, being against more immigration, or disagreeing with gay marriage. If you hear words like "Nazi", "White Nationalist" "hateful", and "vile" only to immediately think "they are talking about me" that is a problem on your end.

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#275

Post by slg » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 11:11 PM UTC

s1artibartfast wrote: post #272

slg wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I said that the idea was about labeling conservatives in general as nazis and justifying violence. But these aren’t “conservatives in general”. These are people who are at the very least fascist sympathizers. No one serious is calling Mitt Romney a nazi.

Anyone can call anyone a Nazi. The question is whether someone can make an individual determination that they think another person is a fascist, and whether this is a legitimate moral defense of extra judicial violence. Do individuals or groups have a moral right to judge others and carryout violence outside of the legal system

>Anyone can call anyone a criminal. The question is whether someone can make an individual determination that they think another person is a criminal, and whether this is a legitimate moral defense of extra judicial violence. Do individuals or groups have a moral right to judge others and carryout violence outside of the legal system

That is basically all comic books. Why are you criticizing this one and not like Batman or something?

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#276

Post by vkou » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 11:12 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #249

s1artibartfast wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say that milo ect were typical or that I agree with them. I said that the idea was about labeling conservatives in general as nazis and justifying violence. I don't agree with the idea that you get to punch someone in the face if you disagree with them, even if you label them as a fascist

> I said that the idea was about labeling conservatives in general as nazis and justifying violence. But these aren’t “conservatives in general”. These are people who are at the very least fascist sympathizers. No one serious is calling Mitt Romney a nazi.

At this point, Mitt Romney is a RINO - republican in name only. The party has moved way past his kind of politics.

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#277

Post by goodpoint » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 11:15 PM UTC

Xeoncross wrote: post #110

I don't understand unions for tech workers. We're not living in shacks rented to us by the company and can't afford a bus ticket to a new city or school to start a new life. We're making six figures here. Want more pay? Sit on your butt and do leetcode or practice interviews and network with other rich programmers. Move to a tropical island and work remote. Heck, you don't even need to go to college and just about an…

> We're making six figures here

Turns out there are other countries outside of the US. And even in US not all developers are overpaid.

Moreover, software developers are much much more likely to drop out of their career before pension and/or face burnout than other fields.

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#278

Post by s1artibartfast » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 11:24 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #275

s1artibartfast wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone can call anyone a Nazi. The question is whether someone can make an individual determination that they think another person is a fascist, and whether this is a legitimate moral defense of extra judicial violence. Do individuals or groups have a moral right to judge others and carryout violence outside of the legal system

>Anyone can call anyone a criminal . The question is whether someone can make an individual determination that they think another person is a criminal , and whether this is a legitimate moral defense of extra judicial violence. Do individuals or groups have a moral right to judge others and carryout violence outside of the legal system That is basically all comic books. Why are you criticizing this one and not like B…

Being a Nazi isn't criminal, and I don't have a dog in this fight. I was just pointing out why the comic was controversial.

I don't think it should be illegal to print, but can see how Kickstarter employees could see it as advocating violence in the context of it's name and origin.

I think employees would be similarly outraged if someone was crowd funding a comic called "how to mow down leftists" after the Charlottesville car attack.

Again, not illegal, but you could see it as advocating vigilantism and not want it on their platform.

In general, I oppose vigilantism and violence, and think both sentiments are detestable.

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#279

Post by BitwiseFool » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 11:24 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #274

BitwiseFool wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way I read the passage, merely holding any position perceived by them as "racist, anti-immigrant, anti-POC, anti-LGBTQ+, anti-anything-but-white-Christian-views ideologies" constitutes Nazism - regardless of whatever term you may choose. Therefore, holding such views rightfully subjects you to well-deserved violence. Given that most conservatives hold positions that are perceived by the nazi punching crowd as one…

You edited "hateful groups are spewing vile..." out of the beginning of that quote which is important because even if people "exaggerate just how "anti" such stances are", there is still a difference between an anti stance and a hateful and vile stance. It isn't talking about opposing affirmative action, being against more immigration, or disagreeing with gay marriage. If you hear words like "Nazi", "White Nationalis…

>"If you hear words like "Nazi", "White Nationalist" "hateful", and "vile" only to immediately think "they are talking about me" that is a problem on your end."

And there's the issue, front and center. If someone like me is worried that labels are getting thrown around in a wanton and haphazard manner, and such labels are used as justification for violence, why is it seen as a character flaw for me to worry that such labels might be foisted upon myself in the future?

>"only to immediately think "they are talking about me" that is a problem on your end."

Honestly, part of why I'm so concerned is that I can't read this as anything other than an insinuation.

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#280

Post by slg » Fri, Jun 17, 2022, 11:27 PM UTC

BitwiseFool wrote: post #273

slg wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And plenty of people today call Joe Biden a communist. Yet if someone has a "Punch a Communist" bumper sticker, I'm not going to call up the Secret Service saying someone is threatening the president because I know that name-calling is inherently unserious. Meanwhile Richard Spencer's Wikipedia page starts with "Richard Bertrand Spencer (born May 1978) is an American neo-Nazi..." It is entirely fair to call that guy…

>"I know that name-calling is inherently unserious." But I must beg the question, if society normalizes and encourages violence against Nazis, doesn't that mean that calling someone a Nazi is a potentially serious act? And, what if they aren't really a Nazi? The term "stochastic terrorism" has been discussed and I believe it applies here. This is the definition I pulled from dicitonary.com: "the public demonization o…

>But I must beg the question, if society normalizes and encourages violence against Nazis, doesn't that mean that calling someone a Nazi is a potentially serious act? And, what if they aren't really a Nazi?

Context is important and it seems like you are trying to blur that context for the sake of an argument. "Mitt Romeny is a Nazi" is not a serious opinion. "Punch a Nazi" is only a slightly more serious notion, but there is firmly a tongue in cheek aspect to it. There is a reason why the only "punching of a Nazi" to reach any type of penetration into pop culture was from the year before this Kickstarter was launched. This comic is not a serious threat anymore than your average issue of The Punisher.