World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate • Hacker News Board

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#271

Post by jl6 » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 9:44 AM UTC

ogig wrote: post #260

atdrummond wrote: post #218

I used to do research at the Shedd Aquarium. After watching a particularly clever octopus defeat every attempt to prevent him leaving his enclosure at night, I am absolutely confident that, just like certain aquatic mammals such as Orca whales, that we only devalue their intelligence because they were unfortunate enough to not be in a situation where they could develop significant tool use and the cultural artifacts…

> I did not eat octopus prior to this but I became firmly in support of encouraging everyone to avoid eating octopus and related creatures after this experience. Not only do I think they're immensely intelligent animals, I am firmly convinced that this particular specimen was smarter than a number of humans that I have met. Where I live octopus is a very popular food, representative of our gastronomy. I love everythi…

To paraphrase Planck, ethics advances one funeral at a time. There are many historical activities which were condoned at the time but now seem abhorrent to us. Participants (or perpetrators, depending on how judgemental you are feeling) in those unethical activities probably never fully recanted, and the best thing they did was to somehow manage not to pass the desire on to the next generation.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#272

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 9:45 AM UTC

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #217

puchatek wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So 0 bad days.

NaN bad days.

[deleted]

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#273

Post by meerita » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 9:47 AM UTC

ogig wrote: post #260

atdrummond wrote: post #218

I used to do research at the Shedd Aquarium. After watching a particularly clever octopus defeat every attempt to prevent him leaving his enclosure at night, I am absolutely confident that, just like certain aquatic mammals such as Orca whales, that we only devalue their intelligence because they were unfortunate enough to not be in a situation where they could develop significant tool use and the cultural artifacts…

> I did not eat octopus prior to this but I became firmly in support of encouraging everyone to avoid eating octopus and related creatures after this experience. Not only do I think they're immensely intelligent animals, I am firmly convinced that this particular specimen was smarter than a number of humans that I have met. Where I live octopus is a very popular food, representative of our gastronomy. I love everythi…

So you're saying you're ok eating dumber animals and leave the intelligent ones alive. Interesting…

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#274

Post by alliao » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 9:47 AM UTC

Tomis02 wrote: post #115

alliao wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the same would apply to pretty much all animals no? and dare I say plants too?

Your comment is a series of logical mistakes. 1. Plants don't have a central nervous system. They're not sentient and don't feel pain. 2. The fact that something "applies to all animals" doesn't somehow make an action morally justifiable. You're suggesting inaction because perfection can't be achieved.

suggest exposing yourself to some Wittgenstein and lion? It's merely some conjecture, nowhere did I suggest inaction too

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#275

Post by Tepix » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 9:49 AM UTC

givemeethekeys wrote: post #228

I watched an Anthony Bourdaine episode where he visited Japan and saw the live octopus that would later be slaughtered for his dinner. He was very excited by it. I looked at the same octopus and not once did the thought, "food" enter my mind. It's the same when I look at cows and chicken.. I don't think of them as food when I see them roaming about. On the other hand, when I see a fish, I do sometimes think, "food!".…

The more you know, the less likely you are to think about animals as food, i reckon.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#276

Post by spockz » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 9:51 AM UTC

infectoid wrote: post #266

ogig wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I did not eat octopus prior to this but I became firmly in support of encouraging everyone to avoid eating octopus and related creatures after this experience. Not only do I think they're immensely intelligent animals, I am firmly convinced that this particular specimen was smarter than a number of humans that I have met. Where I live octopus is a very popular food, representative of our gastronomy. I love everythi…

I'm trying to cut meats out of my diet slowly. All seafood was easy as I was never that into it. Pig meat on the other hand... Bacon, Ham, Pork, etc. I knew that it had to go. So I started with that. Currently I'm an opportunitarian. Chicken is the meat of choice if I can't handle the vegetarian option, otherwise beef. But pig and all seafood is gone from my diet. My hope is that plant-based or cultured meat improves…

In our case we have to avoid gluten, which means avoiding wheats. Most vegetarian dishes contain wheat in some form. So far I haven’t been able to create a week menu with sufficient nutrients without meat or gluten.

It would mean taking supplements. Not sure whether I can stomach the hit to enjoying food it would entail.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#277

Post by atdrummond » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 10:01 AM UTC

unfocussed_mike wrote: post #269

atdrummond wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's part of it but he had an ability to break locks and dismantle constructs with ease. I realized after a while he paid immense attention to how we installed every new addition to his habitat and then would seemingly aim to deconstruct our creations using the knowledge he picked up from our installation work. I truly am in awe of these creatures, especially after one of the long time Shedd workers told me that th…

This is fabulous. It's clear from just watching video clips of them that it's not just about being able to squeeze through gaps. They evidently experience puzzles with an enthusiasm that is unusual even in puzzle-solving birds, can seemingly understand quite complex things like how to non-destructively unscrew bottle tops, and from what I can gather they are kind of obsessed with jars and containers? As an untrained…

They love playing with containers and jars, absolutely. The male I have been describing especially enjoyed opening tightly sealed jars - although he displayed an aversion to all jars for a bit of time after one of the few times we put him with the octopus I'd call the "alpha female". He had handed her a large jar to play with, in what I would describe as an act of kindness. She proceeded to open it and take it back to him. He squeezed inside the jar - and then with intense rapidity, she immediately began screwing the lid back on, trapping him inside. We had to let the poor guy out after she waltzed away and seemingly had zero interest in letting him out. We never let the two of them play together unsupervised after that, worried for his safety.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#278

Post by rectang » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 10:06 AM UTC

nefitty wrote: post #209

rectang wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't it just a fatalistic coloring of ethical relativism? To me, "the universe is indifferent" is ethical relativism but not at all fatalistic. If there is no deliberate outside guidance, then we are free to construct an ethics by "inspecting our own preferences and experiences", as you put it. Isn't that liberating and wonderful? Doesn't it allow for creativity and constant rejuvenation? However, I distrust your…

I agree in regards to the universe's indifference! Cradling that understanding had a big part in my conclusion of moral objectivity. The freedom I gained from that is what allowed me to discover what I know now. My basic formula for moral truth is: starting from a non-maladaptive state of mind, would I prefer to have or recoil from 'X' experience? With that in mind, could I reasonably conclude that sentient others ar…

Thanks, I thoroughly enjoyed your reasoned example!

> starting from a non-maladaptive state of mind

This stage-setting phrase seems to be doing a lot of heavy lifting. Because of course "I should not break the arm of X" is situational: under certain circumstances, such as defending yourself or something you care about, you absolutely should break the arm of an adversary if necessary.

Fully exploring the space of possible situations to find a "truth" is at least difficult and maybe impossible. I speculate that the theoretical limit you could approach is the scientific approximation described by Karl Popper, and explored by Thomas Kuhn in _Structure of Scientific Revolutions_, which means that you're never completely certain and your model is still subject to paradigm shifts. But because ethics is squishier than falsifiable scientific propositions, it will be hard to asymptotically approach that limit.

This is why a lot of the discussion about octopus farming has left me cold: many ethical propositions are being presented as absolute truths, but are almost certainly situationally incomplete. (What is sentience? What is pain? To what degree can we practically spare sentient creatures from pain? Under what circumstances does minimizing pain backfire and increase it in the end? And so on.)

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#279

Post by atdrummond » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 10:08 AM UTC

ogig wrote: post #260

atdrummond wrote: post #218

I used to do research at the Shedd Aquarium. After watching a particularly clever octopus defeat every attempt to prevent him leaving his enclosure at night, I am absolutely confident that, just like certain aquatic mammals such as Orca whales, that we only devalue their intelligence because they were unfortunate enough to not be in a situation where they could develop significant tool use and the cultural artifacts…

> I did not eat octopus prior to this but I became firmly in support of encouraging everyone to avoid eating octopus and related creatures after this experience. Not only do I think they're immensely intelligent animals, I am firmly convinced that this particular specimen was smarter than a number of humans that I have met. Where I live octopus is a very popular food, representative of our gastronomy. I love everythi…

I am mainly a vegetarian, although I will eat ethically raised eggs and dairy products. I grew up in farm country and will also, on a very rare occasion, eat cattle raised on a proper farm/ranch - even though I absolutely love cows, who can be extremely affectionate, I believe they can be slaughtered relatively humanely.

Cephalopods, on the other hand, are extremely difficult to farm in the wild or cull. They show immense and immediate signs of stress, such as attacking others or themselves, going as far to tear off limbs or kill others/commit suicide. I've never seen a cow, when properly taken through the slaughter process (such as using processes innovated by Temple Grandin), express anywhere near that level of despondent agony prior to their death, which is thankfully nearly instantaneous when done properly. The intense response by octopi to their impending slaughter shows me a level of emotion and intelligence that is eerily close to our own.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#280

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 10:12 AM UTC

jl6 wrote: post #271

ogig wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I did not eat octopus prior to this but I became firmly in support of encouraging everyone to avoid eating octopus and related creatures after this experience. Not only do I think they're immensely intelligent animals, I am firmly convinced that this particular specimen was smarter than a number of humans that I have met. Where I live octopus is a very popular food, representative of our gastronomy. I love everythi…

To paraphrase Planck, ethics advances one funeral at a time. There are many historical activities which were condoned at the time but now seem abhorrent to us. Participants (or perpetrators, depending on how judgemental you are feeling) in those unethical activities probably never fully recanted, and the best thing they did was to somehow manage not to pass the desire on to the next generation.

[deleted]