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Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

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Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#271

Post by BenderV »

jokoon wrote: post #247

I have depression issues, and have been coding for 10 years now. I don't know if I'm bad at programming, or if it's because I lack a degree, or because I have been chronically unemployed and lack experience, or because I'm too selective with the jobs I apply on (I can't bear php or js stuff like angular), or because I live in france or in the wrong city. I may have an atypical profile. Programming has not been very g…

I'm guessing if you don't live in a big city (Paris, Lille, ...) & stay on low-level programming (like C), there is really less demands.

However, I guess most come down to your network, your confidence and how you represent yourself (having the same "cultural" code as experts).

My 2 cents is to treat yourself well first (a healthy mind for a good body), travel more, and work on public stuff / connect with others.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#272

Post by lelanthran »

ggm wrote: post #263
lelanthran wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We're still attending stand-ups every day with non programmers telling us when we can and cannot refactor. It's nuts to me that a skilled profession - that not many can do - lets themselves get micro-managed like this. This is actually quite interesting as I was just talking to a few other professionals about this in a social setting. I was the only one in software development. I mentioned how stand-ups work briefl…

> No lawyer, accountant, doctor, engineer, scientist or other professional stands up each day to report *to their peers* on their progress Doctors do something not far removed. It's really important to them to caucus on case management. I think other professions may do the same.

> Doctors do something not far removed. It's really important to them to caucus on case management.

Maybe, but it is removed.

From my recollection, doctors don't standup each day to report on what they have or have not done and their individual progress, they report on purely on problematic patients that could do with expertise from a different expert, and it's not a daily progress report.

If software development followed that sort of practice, we'd have problematic issues added to a pool that gets discussed once a week. What we have is micro-management of each individual. Doctors most certainly aren't being micromanaged like that (well, not the one who I was socialising with, and not any of the others I've socialised with).

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#273

Post by LAC-Tech »

moritonal wrote: post #253
LAC-Tech wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we're definitely better at non-developers at software development. Yet we literally have outside people dictating to us when they think it's appropriate for refactoring to happen. Or when it's time to update a dependency. This is a lot different from than "no on besides them can have any insight on timelines, or budget, on which features are or aren't important.". I definitely value the input of other profess…

Perspective might be key here. "Yet we literally have outside people dictating to _you_ when they think it's appropriate for refactoring to happen. Or when it's time to update a dependency." You work in a place where this happens. You could not.

I don't work anywhere right now :) But as a contractor I move around, and it feels pretty industry standard to me.

Where does it not happen?

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#274

Post by smattiuz »

Are they really though? I'm nearly ready to call it once and for all, toxic and disruptive industry, after 12+ years in it. Expectations are unfairly high, salaries make absolutely no sense, 60+ hours a week are expected even though contracts talk about 37/40hrs/week on average. Meh.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#275

Post by LAC-Tech »

WJW wrote: post #241
LAC-Tech wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an independent contractor for the past two years, It hasn't been much of a grind finding and retaining customers. You have to put some work in, sure, but I don't feel it's particularly onerous. Never had to take someone out to dinner or cold call. People need software development skills and generally like it when you find them. As for never being paid on time - I think the most late it's ever been has been 2 weeks…

Maybe I misunderstand what you hope to get out of the partnership then? The Dev Hegemony book describes a situation where everyone (every dev at least) magically becomes an "opportunist" in the books terms, without going into what will happen to all the pragmatists and idealists. Nor does it have an answer for why the opportunist/idealist/pragmatist divide will not reappear inside the agency.

The scale of what I can deliver is somewhat limited as a single person.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#276

Post by manigandham »

lelanthran wrote: post #258
LAC-Tech wrote: post #176

I feel like we have so much leverage and don't use it at all. We're still attending stand-ups every day with non programmers telling us when we can and cannot refactor. It's nuts to me that a skilled profession - that not many can do - lets themselves get micro-managed like this. If anyone has read Developer Hegemony , I'm fully on board with that general premise - we start operating like lawyers with partnerships, a…

> We're still attending stand-ups every day with non programmers telling us when we can and cannot refactor. It's nuts to me that a skilled profession - that not many can do - lets themselves get micro-managed like this. This is actually quite interesting as I was just talking to a few other professionals about this in a social setting. I was the only one in software development. I mentioned how stand-ups work briefl…

Not exactly. All professions have similar communication. Subordinates report up to their supervisors and colleagues discuss laterally with themselves, especially when in a team focused on the same project.

> "I mentioned how stand-ups ... might not be a bad idea"

That's what the other professions are taking issue with: the way software teams communicate.

Stand-ups are a terrible idea. Imposed superficial questions with rarely any nuance or relevance while eating at productive time. We need proper measured processes rather than the agile/scrum/random voodoo of the day.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#277

Post by Jiejeing »

jokoon wrote: post #247

I have depression issues, and have been coding for 10 years now. I don't know if I'm bad at programming, or if it's because I lack a degree, or because I have been chronically unemployed and lack experience, or because I'm too selective with the jobs I apply on (I can't bear php or js stuff like angular), or because I live in france or in the wrong city. I may have an atypical profile. Programming has not been very g…

Programmers are in high demand, even in France.

That said, there are some major caveats: - Salaries posted on HN are way over the top compared to anything you can get in France - Most of the recruiting is done through SSIIs/ESNs (capgemini, sopra, atos, etc), which is often shit pay, shit management, shit missions (which is not really a boon if you are already depressive)

For stability and peace of mind, the most straightforward way is to either enter software dev in a big corp (banks, etc, which have in-house teams), or some "éditeur logiciel" whose product is software. Video game development is a big no unless you knowingly want to be exploited for a while until you burn out.

If you have experience, you can increasingly ask for full or close to full remote work if you insist a bit, but most of the time you will only be offered 2 to 3 days of remote work a week, which implies relocating.

Although I don’t like saying this, if you do not have experience you could prep up a bit by working publicly on FOSS things that are relevant to your interest, to have technical things that you care about to talk about during an interview, even if it is totally unrelated to the domain you interview in.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#278

Post by bryanrasmussen »

ggm wrote: post #263
lelanthran wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We're still attending stand-ups every day with non programmers telling us when we can and cannot refactor. It's nuts to me that a skilled profession - that not many can do - lets themselves get micro-managed like this. This is actually quite interesting as I was just talking to a few other professionals about this in a social setting. I was the only one in software development. I mentioned how stand-ups work briefl…

> No lawyer, accountant, doctor, engineer, scientist or other professional stands up each day to report *to their peers* on their progress Doctors do something not far removed. It's really important to them to caucus on case management. I think other professions may do the same.

I mean every show I ever saw where more than one lawyer is on a case they are constantly talking about how their part is progressing, probably they don't have a standup because they talk about it so much that they don't need 10 minutes a day to let everyone know what's going on.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#279

Post by trenchgun »

hooby wrote: post #256
dystroy wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For taxi drivers, the most important change was already done and it took decades: it wasn't replacing them with self driving vehicles. It was replacing very competent drivers having a perfect knowledge of the town and of the optimal paths with drivers with absolutely no competence needed. We don't have software driven vehicles, we have software driven humans.

Sounds quite similar to my accountants-example, doesn't it?

Indeed it does.

Re: Times are great for programmers now. How does it end?

#280

Post by pdimitar »

edanm wrote: post #229
LAC-Tech wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we're definitely better at non-developers at software development. Yet we literally have outside people dictating to us when they think it's appropriate for refactoring to happen. Or when it's time to update a dependency. This is a lot different from than "no on besides them can have any insight on timelines, or budget, on which features are or aren't important.". I definitely value the input of other profess…

Again, I'm not defending every single workplace here. Obviously some developers aren't treated well, and in those cases, they should find another job. I was commenting on the fairly blanket statement made. But the way the conversation should go isn't the developer deciding when refactoring should happen. It's the developer giving an analysis of the cost and benefit of a refactoring (it will take X time, but will save…

> It's the developer giving an analysis of the cost and benefit of a refactoring (it will take X time, but will save Y work in the future). And the manager factoring that into all the other circumstances, and deciding whether it's worth the current cost.

This has been the ideal theory for decades and I really wish people finally stopped to think for two minutes, look around, read some history and finally understand that it's not working.

Is it really so hard to accept this reality? I am periodically mind-boggled by the amazingly resilient illusion that you can plan things as tidily. It never happened, not once, in my 20 years of career.

Estimating these costs upfront is more or less impossible. It's usually a can of worms that opens other brand new and exciting sub-tasks, the same kind that gives managers nightmares.

IMO you might have projected a little bit and arguing against some imaginary "us the programmers are better than everyone else". Meh. Only kiddos think and say things like that. By and large, almost all experienced programmers I've ever met are quite moderate and humble.

Problem is, they are too moderate and humble which leads to predatory businessmen micro-managing them to oblivion. I've personally witnessed high-profile programmers firmly saying "No!", putting their foot down and making a thing their way with more time budget. Their project and code was used, almost untouched, for 10+ years afterwards -- it was that good.

Many of us are expert artisans. You don't go to a professional blacksmith giving him wisdom how can he accelerate a certain process.

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