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Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

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271–280 of 329 posts

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#271
post #113

> What has the world come to, where technology has been appropriated and we are left paying rents every month and companies are increasingly becoming user-hostile and predatory and monopolistic! This is the expected outcome of Capitalism and was only a matter of time until it happened. If you let for-profit companies run wild, power will consolidate, allowing them to enact whatever policy has the best ROI at the cost…

This +10 (if I could). Modern Corporate / Wall Street capitalism will brutally optimize for whatever schemes squeeze the most money out of the victims. Oops, sorry! - I meant customers . (Though I don't really agree with your second para. If users actually cared, at scale - vs. reacting like Pavlov's dogs to corporate marketing & such - then the nastier corporations would have to change or die. Note what happened to…

> Though I don't really agree with your second para. If users actually cared, at scale - vs. reacting like Pavlov's dogs to corporate marketing & such - then the nastier corporations would have to change or die. Note what happened to the "American" car companies, back when they were selling un-reliable gas guzzlers, and Americans decided that buying reliable Japanese econo-cars was the smart way to fight back.

So the solution is to wait for another for-profit company to be slightly better, migrate en masse, and hope the new one isn't as nasty as the old one. This is what people did when migrating to gmail (so much free space ! so much speed ! so much cool !) and look where we are now. Same with Apple, Facebook, and others. It's the perpetual myth that competition keeps bad actors in check - but it assumes that starting a competitor and gaining users is so easy that anyone can do it if they don't like the current offer. It's wishful thinking at best, and still doesn't give any guarantees to the user.

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#273
post #254

I have to disagree. It all depends on the value I receive which some are a bit better than before. For example for Office365 Home you get 5 licenses including 1TB of OneDrive all for $99/year. If I had to pay for just one Office Suite License(word, ppt, excel) would be around $200(low end). If I needed 5 that would be $1000. Now divide that $1000 over how many years you would probably use before wanting upgrade which…

It's not worth it when you consider Office 2013 was available as a single $99 purchase for 5 machines, forever.

For a business however Office 365 w/Outlook makes sense because maintaining your own email server is way too much hassle these days.

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#274

A conversation needs to be had over subscription humans. The real world today is increasingly run by subscription humans, or “employees.” They are lazy, business-hostile, and rent extracting. My most recent experience is John and Amy and Sam, completely do-nothing, scam people who command ridiculous amounts of salary with no easy way to fire them or unsubscribe. What has the world come to, where labor has been approp…

This analogy doesn't work. The OP didn't say software should be free, or that people shouldn't be paid.

One-time fees for software were common less than a decade ago. How did those companies manage to make payroll each month?

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#275

When automobiles came out, Henry Ford (on his 3rd try) managed to perfect mass production. He lowered the cost of production by at least an order of magnitude below that of traditional manufacturers, while producing quality, interchangeable parts. Eventually, the market saturated, and his competitors shifted to fashion based sales, with model years, etc. Ford resisted, but eventually gave in. --- In programming, the…

To clarify, this is for software running on my computer, not software as a service running in the cloud.

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody likes them. If that was true, financing wouldn't exist for consumer products. In practice, people pay extra to turn a one-time payment into a subscription.

Except with financing you own the product and one day the payments end. You're saying that home ownership is the same as renting if you don't buy upfront? That's simply not true. Also, the vast majority of people would prefer to live in a home they own than burn money renting.

Some financing leads to ownership. Leasing a car does not lead to ownership - it is an extended rental.

I am not a fan of products that make it difficult to unsubscribe, but I do like the variable cost aspect of SaaS. Generally quick to start using and quick to stop.

I have not seen it commented on, but my sense is security is easier with a SaaS model. How many pirated versions of software have you come across in your career pre-Saas?

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#277

A lot of comments are already addressing this horrible trend of moving from standalone native software to “SaaS” but this one is also terrible: > now trying to trick people to use One Drive more A lot of software are now deliberately blurring the line between local storage and cloud storage, not just Office. When I choose to save a file, I expect to save it locally to my hard disk, in a file that I can find and manip…

You're right about the blurring of the line. But the average user doesn't care as long there is access to the file. Saving the files on your computer require you to backup regularly the files and that's to much of a hassle for the average user in comparison to just saving it to the cloud.

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#278
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or...updates nobody asked for. Quite a few casual users might be perfectly happy with Office 2003, or Adobe PS6, as anything after that they don't need. And not just that, they may not want the UI to be revamped every 2 months. The option to just have stable, working software is increasingly taken away. Not to mention the anti competitive nature of these two parties. They can just bundle an additional app in their su…

Your point needs more attention IMO. Most updates for most software don't add usability or convenience for the end user. The way conversational rhetoric with my family and friends seems to have transitioned from "wow, these computers are cool! This will really help with x" to complete frustration.

Yes -- and subscriptions in some sense may worsen this problem, in that subscriptions create an incentive towards ongoing interface and feature churn, to create a notional justification for ongoing revenue.

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#279
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't see how these are user hostile. They lock you in to continuing to pay even when you no longer derive value. Say you stopped using Photoshop years ago but suddenly need to export one of your old documents. You’re now forced to pay rent to Adobe for at least one month to access one of your own files. And Adobe won’t make it easy to unsubscribe again, which adds to the hassle. > The pay per update model forces…

> Say you stopped using Photoshop years ago but suddenly need to export one of your old documents. You’re now forced to pay rent to Adobe for at least one month to access one of your own files. And Adobe won’t make it easy to unsubscribe again, which adds to the hassle. Yes, if a software uses a proprietary file format and you lose access to that software, then you can't open the files anymore. That sounds pretty str…

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Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#280
post #18

This sort of began when we all got the impression that software should be free, or that we pay a low price once and get indefinite free upgrades. Given that developers need to be paid, and resources cost money, there needs to be a way to rectify that gap between the consumer and maintainer. At one point we did so by paying for an initial version of software, and then paying for updates. Now that we don’t do that, but…

> How do you achieve super cheap products made by people making super high pay?

By economy of scale. If you have 50,000 paying users, $10 each, that should cover either 5 man-years of average software development, or 2 man-years of one senior/principal level developer.

Most products in question have users in the millions, paying 10 to 100 times as much. Do the math.

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