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Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

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Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#271
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m really uncomfortable with Fact Checking on the Internet, particularly because we don’t know who we are anointing as the checkers. But I have yet to see a better alternative. The status quo of just giving everyone in the world a megaphone is clearly worse and not working. It would be better if, instead of trying to claim that they were some kind of authority on what is a fact and what isn’t, they just said “this c…

"But I have yet to see a better alternative." Sure you have - openness! Sunlight is the best disinfectant. I'd much rather not see ANY censorship and instead have the tools to make my own decision and filter out content I don't want to see. The downside is that takes work; many people seem content to be spoon fed as to what to believe/not believe or can't be bothered to get informed on their own so I get why some peo…

Filtering and sunlight are opposites of each other.

Sunlight requires you to see the stuff you think is inaccurate, and for you to put work into criticising that content. Not only that, but you have to do it unpaid, and it feeds Facebook's bottom line.

Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#272
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no claims can ever be proven because in the end everything is subjective. That's not true, because Rosenberg was convicted of crimes. It's a fact to state what those convictions were. There's no arguing with that. - Rosenberg was convicted of weapons and explosive possession: 100% true statement - Rosenberg was convicted of fraudulent document possession: 100% true statement - Rosenberg was convicted of terrorism:…

>> Terrorism has a pretty well accepted definition - violent acts against civilians to gain political power. >If we go by this well accepted definition, then almost every government on the planet fits, particularly the US government. Violent acts specifically targeted against civilians to gain political power. > I'm sure you will now argue a caveat and qualifications to the well accepted definition you presented abov…

Just to answer your other post > do you think Mohammed Atta was a terrorist

I think he was a terrorist, but he's not a convicted terrorist. I don't believe he's been convicted of anything to this day.

> Violent acts specifically targeted against civilians to gain political power.

Like I said, the definition of terrorism presented was characterized as "well accepted", but as I predicted, you've now presented an amendment to what was already purported to be definitional. If the definition given by the other poster isn't the well accepted one, how can I be sure yours is? How are you sure it is?

Your own definition of "Violent acts specifically targeted against civilians to gain political power" is equally unsatisfactory. Governments bring violence specifically against their own civilians all the time to gain political power.

In fact, the Snopes article provides what I would say is a generally accepted definition of terrorism, 18 USC § 2331(5), which offers a concise framework we can use to evaluate the case of Rosenberg. Crucially, applying this framework would require facts that have not been established in a court of law. You can say to yourself that the application of the facts fit this code as you see them, and that's valid. But at the same time this code is not a criminal statute, and moreover itself contains a subjective assessment of intent -- "...appear to be intended...". Therefore it's quite hard to get from "I think this person is a terrorist" to "this person is a convicted terrorist".

So I would say that the general accepted definition of terrorism actually is itself subjective, and would hinge heavily on the issue of proving intent, or at least the appearance of intent.

> their audience was acting in good faith.

Please stick to the topic, let's not turn this into personal attacks, thank you.

> likely already aware that in the common definition of terrorism

Literally I'm not. You can't even agree with the other poster with your definition, or the US Code for that matter. Within the span of 3 posts we now just as many "definitions" for terrorism.

And anyway, we are not talking abut common definitions here, we are talking about criminal statutes when the word "convicted" is thrown into the mix. I simply reject the notion that "convicted terrorist" was meant as anything other than "someone convicted of terrorism". And we really don't have to speculate on the intent of that phrase, because the next sentence of the post under fact check was:

  She was convicted for the 1983 bombing of the United States Capitol Building, the U.S. Naval War College and the New York Patrolmen’s Benevolent Assoc
Which is a flat out not true. She was not convicted for those acts. It's true she was convicted of possessing weapons and bombs. It's true she was convicted for having forged documents. It's not true she was convicted for terrorism, and it's not true she was convicted for a single bombing, let alone three. Given this, I don't see how anything other than a mixed verdict is okay.

> I think you're just supporting for football team rather than trying to seek the truth and I feel bad for the parent they're engaging with you.

If you don't want to engage with me, or the other poster doesn't want to, neither of you have to stick around. I'm happy to keep talking about this issue, but please keep the personal attacks to a minimum, thanks.

In fact if you want to know what my football team is, I'm a pacifist and I find the Weather Underground and its members abhorrent. Rather than assume things about me and using those assumptions to draw conclusions about my intentions, you could have just asked me my personal opinions. If I'm rooting for a football team here, it would be the team of nuance in political discussions, rather than labeling people "convicted terrorist" and "convicted for ... bombing[s]" when they literally are not.

Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#273
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand what you are saying, but at the same time the claim was that she was a “convicted terrorist”, when in fact she was not convicted of terrorism. That’s just a fact. You can look at her convictions, and there is no conviction for terrorism. There’s plenty to say about her actions, which are certainly terroristic, but her being “convicted” of terrorism is straight up not true, no matter how you feel about it…

You’re playing the same fuck-fuck games that Snopes plays. The claim is “convicted terrorist”. Those are two claims: 1) she is a terrorist and 2) she was convicted. Even Snope admits she was convicted of crimes linked to terrorism, but the link is subjective. ”it is a matter of subjective determination as to whether the actions for which Rosenberg was convicted and imprisoned — possession of weapons and hundreds of p…

"Convict and a robber" seems like the appropriate description to me.

They could also be convicted of any number of things, that aren't robbery.

By saying convicted robber, you're assigning more certainty to your claim that they're a robber than there is. You're trying to argue that they're a robber when you're saying somebody is a robber and they haven't been convicted of robbery. Saying that they're a convicted robber pretends that it's already been proven beyond reasonable doubt, which it hasn't

Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no claims can ever be proven because in the end everything is subjective. That's not true, because Rosenberg was convicted of crimes. It's a fact to state what those convictions were. There's no arguing with that. - Rosenberg was convicted of weapons and explosive possession: 100% true statement - Rosenberg was convicted of fraudulent document possession: 100% true statement - Rosenberg was convicted of terrorism:…

Bin laden is a terrorist but he is not a convicted terrorist. Just like Susan Rosenberg who sits on the board of BLM. Does that work better for you?

"Susan Rosenberg sits on the board of BLM and I believe she is a terrorist." That would be a factual statement (although as the Snopes article points out there's a little bit of nuance about being on the "board" of BLM. She's on the board of a group that works closely with fundraising for BLM, but is not exactly BLM).

No need to bring OBL into the mix.

Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true, there are fundamental problems with the concept of "fact-checking". Often the "fact" is just the majority consent, as e.g., demonstrated by the banning of the Wuhan lab leak theory prior to it becoming mainstream. But more broadly, there is a stark imbalance between the resources of the fact-checker (a few minutes or hours to decide) and the author who (e.g. in this case) conducted a month-long, in-depth i…

I’m really uncomfortable with Fact Checking on the Internet, particularly because we don’t know who we are anointing as the checkers. But I have yet to see a better alternative. The status quo of just giving everyone in the world a megaphone is clearly worse and not working. It would be better if, instead of trying to claim that they were some kind of authority on what is a fact and what isn’t, they just said “this c…

> At the end of the day, Company X hosts the servers and decides what they host and if Company X don’t want to host some kind of content they won’t.

That's very reductive. There are many laws limiting how companies can behave, especially once they exceed a certain size, because a laissez-faire approach has been shown to be harmful to society. Workplace safety, food safety, building codes, anti-trust, etc.

Such laws do not yet exist for social media activities, but that's not an argument that they shouldn't, or that these companies shouldn't try to behave better even absent such laws compelling them.

I'm not saying they should or shouldn't fact check, or censor according to their whims. I am saying that you can't dismiss it as "they're a private company they can do what they want".

Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#276
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sorry I don’t know what a fuck fuck game is, but I’m not sure you aren’t playing one with me. You’re trying to tell me that “convicted” is not an adjective applying to the following word terrorist? Is that your argument? Anyway, even if we accept what you say here, that there were two claims: one she was convicted of crimes. True. Two she is a terrorist: subjective. One person’s terrorist is another’s freedom fig…

By this logic no claims can ever be proven because in the end everything is subjective. To quote Bill Clinton, it depends on your definition of “is”. Terrorism has a pretty well accepted definition - violent acts against civilians to gain political power. That’s exactly what she was doing when caught with hundreds of pounds of explosives. But again, it’s a distinction without worth - the claim implies she is a violen…

That's not a well accepted definition though. It doesn't matter if it's a civilian or military target. Any violence done by somebody without social/economic/political power on somebody with that power is labeled terrorism

Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#277
post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Terrorism has a pretty well accepted definition - violent acts against civilians to gain political power. >If we go by this well accepted definition, then almost every government on the planet fits, particularly the US government. Violent acts specifically targeted against civilians to gain political power. > I'm sure you will now argue a caveat and qualifications to the well accepted definition you presented abov…

Just to answer your other post > do you think Mohammed Atta was a terrorist I think he was a terrorist, but he's not a convicted terrorist. I don't believe he's been convicted of anything to this day. > Violent acts specifically targeted against civilians to gain political power. Like I said, the definition of terrorism presented was characterized as "well accepted", but as I predicted, you've now presented an amendm…

>"If I'm rooting for a football team here, it would be the team of nuance in political discussions, rather than labeling people "convicted terrorist" and "convicted for ... bombing[s]" when they literally are not. "

What bugs me the most about this is that someone out there was trying to raise awareness about this person's background. But apparently, they made the fatal mistake of using the word "convicted" and now everyone is fixating on that as the linchpin of the argument. Not only does it feel like misdirection, it feels like missing the forest for the trees.

Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#278
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having read the original article and BMJ's follow up I think Facebook is right here. The original article does lack context and is not a measured response to the problems found. Especially so considering it was published in November 2021 after hundreds of millions of doses were given and the vaccine was obviously safe and effective. They should have known better than to give fodder to the anti-vax movement.

You seem to be making a normative statement, that journalism should be making editorial decisions in order to nudge toward the outcome they believe is correct (or that some societal watchdog believes is correct?) rather than what's normally considered the goal of detached and dispassionate reporting.

Who is the journalist here?

Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to answer your other post > do you think Mohammed Atta was a terrorist I think he was a terrorist, but he's not a convicted terrorist. I don't believe he's been convicted of anything to this day. > Violent acts specifically targeted against civilians to gain political power. Like I said, the definition of terrorism presented was characterized as "well accepted", but as I predicted, you've now presented an amendm…

>"If I'm rooting for a football team here, it would be the team of nuance in political discussions, rather than labeling people "convicted terrorist" and "convicted for ... bombing[s]" when they literally are not. " What bugs me the most about this is that someone out there was trying to raise awareness about this person's background. But apparently, they made the fatal mistake of using the word "convicted" and now e…

Using the word "convicted" was not a mistake. They could have raised awareness about Rosenberg's background without lying about it. But sure, let's agree right now that saying "convicted terrorist" was an unfortunate mistake. How do you justify the next sentence:

  She was convicted for the 1983 bombing of the United States Capitol Building, the U.S. Naval War College and the New York Patrolmen’s Benevolent Assoc.
Talk about misdirection, this is 100% false. She was not convicted for any of those bombings. Not in any way, shape, or form. How do you square a perceived innocent intent of the first sentence with this doozy of a lie in the second sentence, which obviously serves to bolster the claim of "convicted terrorist".

I agree it's important to make clear the history of violent people, and to avoid them when possible. At the same time I would say that mischaracterizing and overstating their past is not a good way to do so credibly. Perhaps that may cause people to miss the forest for the trees, but that's all the more reason to keep one's statements moored to facts.

Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#280
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In their defense, most members of the mainstream media are so scientifically ignorant that they probably don't even understand the difference between those theories.

Perhaps they should have somebody on their team who isn't scientifically ignorant explain things to them before they start spewing crap to millions of people?

As long as advertisers will pay to show up between segments, there's no real incentive to.

News exists to make money, and a faster but less accurate story is more profitable

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