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Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

calcalistech.com

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Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#271

Post by weatherlite »

tsimionescu wrote: post #258
weatherlite wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How many people have been killed by Palestinians in Israel since, say, 2011 (the last ten years?) How many has Israel killed in Palestine in the same time frame? It will only be proportional if Israel agrees to let Hamas and the PLO be armed with as good weapons as it has. Or in other words if Israel commits suicide. It's unclear to me what you're actually arguing for.

The official position from Israel is that it must control all sorts of things because the huge threat that Hamas and others pose to its national security. Their official position is also that they only target Gaza in proportional retaliation, and even then only against combatants. What we see instead is that Hammas has less and less ability to harm Israel, but Israel is still systematically killing Palestinian civili…

> What we see instead is that Hammas has less and less ability to harm Israel

Well yes, that's why the proportion is like it is. Once/if it gets the ability to harm Israel, many more Israelis will die. This has nothing much to do with "systematically killing Palestinians" or Hamas being merciful. It's just a possibly temporary balance of power. Interesting that Hamas fired the first shots in the last conflict, that's not really the behavior of a regime trying to save lives.

Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#272

Post by denton-scratch »

ForgotMyPwOops wrote: post #148
yonixw wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BDS != The only way to criticize Israel. Lobbing against BDS has a pretty simple cause... From the same page: > ... A dozen local and national parliaments have passed symbolic resolutions condemning BDS. Most of these condemnations have alleged that BDS is anti-Semitic. Austria, Canada, France, Germany, Spain...

Do you believe boycotting is protected speech? Do you believe American citizens should be allowed to choose who they boycott?

Boycotting doesn't seem to me to be a form of speech. It's just people choosing where to spend their money. Divestment is similar - people choose what to invest in and what not to invest in.

Campaigning for BDS does seem to be speech, and regrettably institutions seem to have gathered around the view that it's antisemitic speech.

Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#273

Post by pydry »

rtpg wrote: post #247
tehwebguy wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean the NSA literally admitted in 2013[0] that the NSA had employees doing stuff like this just for personal reasons. The only real difference is where the data was gathered from and I'm not even sure it's worth differentiating: > At least a dozen U.S. National Security Agency employees have been caught using secret government surveillance tools to spy on the emails or phone calls of their current or former spouse…

I feel like the distinction between "employees at the NSA using tools to look up stuff for personal issues" and things like "the FBI actively looking up dirt on civil rights leaders to try and blackmail them" like with MLK is extremely important! One is a case of employees abusing a system for personal gain. Another is establishing a system of abuse in service of the security service. Absolutely night and day in term…

Hoover wasnt trying to advance the goals of the state either. For him, destroying MLK was about a struggle for power over the state.

Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#274

Post by tsimionescu »

weatherlite wrote: post #271
tsimionescu wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The official position from Israel is that it must control all sorts of things because the huge threat that Hamas and others pose to its national security. Their official position is also that they only target Gaza in proportional retaliation, and even then only against combatants. What we see instead is that Hammas has less and less ability to harm Israel, but Israel is still systematically killing Palestinian civili…

> What we see instead is that Hammas has less and less ability to harm Israel Well yes, that's why the proportion is like it is. Once/if it gets the ability to harm Israel, many more Israelis will die. This has nothing much to do with "systematically killing Palestinians" or Hamas being merciful. It's just a possibly temporary balance of power. Interesting that Hamas fired the first shots in the last conflict, that's…

The point is this: for whatever reason (mostly, as you say, simple military inferiority), Hamas is no longer harming Israel to a great extent, and hasn't been in the last decade. Why then is Israel still harming Palestinians at the same rate it was back when Hamas was a major threat?

The only reasonable conclusion is that Israel's attacks on Palestinian people are not related to Hamas attacks on Israeli people, they are coming from a desire to harm the people or state of Palestine.

This desire is of course corroborated by other actions - most notably, the illegal colonization of Palestinian territories with Israeli citizens of Jewish descent.

Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#275

Post by weatherlite »

gambiting wrote: post #252
weatherlite wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN is quickly deteriorating to Gab/Zero Hedge quality, nice.

Posting a list of links with sources is now Gab quality? Do they even bother to post their sources ever?

Sure they do why wouldn't they, they have their own resources and their own truth.

Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#276

Post by denton-scratch »

ForgotMyPwOops wrote: post #153
yonixw wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do. But I don't if it's anti-Semitic. And that's the whole question. Seems like many agree it's the latter.

Who decides what is antisemitic? It seems to me that based on your logic all speech can be prevented assuming some arbiter declares it antisemitic Boycotting can hardly be considered protected speech if that's all it takes to silence it

> Who decides what is antisemitic?

There's a trend towards allowing complainants to define what actions are discriminatory, and therefore criminal. It's weird.

Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#277

Post by pydry »

yonixw wrote: post #154
colpabar wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that maybe the lobbying groups funded by israel had something to do with those resolutions being passed?

I do, but, If it also happened in Germany and France which frequently criticize Israel, seems like it anti-BDS has nothing to do with silencing criticizing Israel... because they haven't stopped since.

Israel is pretty tolerant of meek criticism and regular old antisemitism (e.g. like that employed by their allies Orban and evangelicals/southern baptists).

BDS constitutes much more of an existential threat to the state - they're keenly aware of its pivotal role in taking down apartheid South Africa.

That is, it's the explicit anti-racist grass roots and history of the movement that they object to so vehemently.

This is why they routunely throw out unfounded accusations of antisemitism & throw all the quite considerable lobbying firepower they have in key countries to try and stamp it out.

Support for killing BDS in other countries is as a result, indirectly, an accurate bellwether of which politicians will support/tolerate racism and which politicians can be bought (e.g. Trump - big ally, easily bought, largely pro-racism). There are some in most countries.

Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#278

Post by denton-scratch »

noduerme wrote: post #217
ILMostro7 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet they all tend to be grouped into that category when a phrase like "anti-semitic" is used. If jews criticize Israel, they're labelled as self-hating. Whitewashing in the name of holocaust victims is doing a disservice, to say the least, IMHO. Religious zealots on one side are treated with white gloves, while any dissent or uproar (unrelated to Religion, even) on the other side is seen as justification to take any…

When you compare Gaza to the Warsaw Ghetto, you're doing violence to history. The Warsaw Ghetto did not have elections to vote in a terrorist group. It was not offered its own nation-state. It didn't receive billions in foreign aid to build bombs. It did not have a charter, nor was the annihilation of German civilians in its charter. Moreover, it existed as a way to round people up in order to exterminate them. That…

> The Warsaw Ghetto did not have elections to vote in a terrorist group.

HAMAS was not a "terrorist group" when they were duly elected in the Gaza Strip.

> It was not offered its own nation-state.

Neither Gaza nor the West Bank has been offered it's own nation-state.

Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#279

Post by denton-scratch »

mateo1 wrote: post #21
Barrin92 wrote: post #17

People used to quip that Prussia is an army with a country rather than the other way around, it seems like if you add the modern intelligence sector that describes Israel. With all the concerns about 'Military-civil fusion ' as it's called in China or Russia I always found it funny that Israel might as well be the country that has merged both spheres most successfully but nobody really seems to care at all.

A lot of people voice their concerns, including a lot of Israelis, but what can you do? Israel is a democracy and the majority votes for far right militaristic candidates and parties. Whether or not you hear about these concerns in public discourse in your country's media depends on your current foreign policy.

> depends on your current foreign policy.

"depends on the media". FTFY.

Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#280

Post by denton-scratch »

voz_ wrote: post #141
kome wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you forgot about palestine.

They are their own government, with their own people, who readily elected a terrorist group to leadership.

HAMAS was declared a terrorist group after they were elected by a majority in the Gaza Strip.
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