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Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

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Re: Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

#271

Post by whimsicalism »

joelbluminator wrote: post #261
whimsicalism wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Super disingenuous in my view to have some purity test around renouncing violence against a white supremacist state. Is political violence not justified in that context? Were violent European revolutions against their monarchs all terroristic? Honestly surprised to see so many apartheid apologists in these replies.

Was the violence always against the state or was it also against innocent civilians? Not really the same thing.

Sorry, trying to follow the threads here. Because some violence was perpetrated against civilians, I should thus expect Nelson Mandela to denounce all violence against the apartheid state and condemn him for failure to do so?

Why is the same charge not levied against the apartheid South African state, which refused to renounce violence after committing violence against its own black citizens (forcible imprisonment, beatings, etc.) for daring to marry a white person, against anyone who was caught in a white area of the country, etc. etc.?

Re: Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

#272

Post by whimsicalism »

pvarangot wrote: post #254
whimsicalism wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Super disingenuous in my view to have some purity test around renouncing violence against a white supremacist state. Is political violence not justified in that context? Were violent European revolutions against their monarchs all terroristic? Honestly surprised to see so many apartheid apologists in these replies.

> Were violent European revolutions against their monarchs all terroristic? Unfortunately the answer is something like "yes but we don't want to speak about that because it makes us feel uncomfortable" most of the time. Thing is western society has been doing well the past 20/30 years regarding civil-war like violence at a large scale and for a hard to fix issue, and no one wants to talk about how or why but everyone…

No, they weren't. Nevermind the fact that "terrorism" is a stupid word - these were justified conflicts of a people against tyranny. Violence for those aims is justified.

Re: Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

#273

Post by jules-jules »

otrahuevada wrote: post #165
q1w2 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no evidence of torture whatsoever. This is a strange lie you keep posting with your link to 972mag, a biased Palestinian defense magazine. If you dig a little deeper at what the actual accountant's lawyer said - he said his client was seated in a chair with his hands tied behind his back during his initial arrest. Inventing a new name ("The shabah position") doesn't make it torture. Obviously the lawyer want…

https://www.972mag.com/shin-bet-dossier-palestinian-ngos/ Oh isn'there? Please, stop lying. The established facts, that the Shin Bet tortures people and israeli courts accept anything extracted under torture as testimony, do not in any way make your attempt at attacking sources of information nor your claim that this is false any more valid. Your insistence makes me wonder what kind of incentives you have to be perce…

>what kind of incentives you have

I am sure you are aware, but there is an ongoing, well-funded and highly organised propaganda campaign with deep military integration.

https://old.reddit.com/r/WikiLeaks/comments/nher96/inside_is...

https://old.reddit.com/r/israelexposed/comments/n4etue/found...

https://old.reddit.com/r/israelexposed/comments/o5su74/the_i...

Re: Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

#274

Post by BeetleB »

whimsicalism wrote: post #238
BeetleB wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mandela was offered an early release if he renounced violence. He did not take that offer. I don't know about after his release, but for most of his life he believed in achieving his aims with violence, if need be. As for the violence the ANC perpetrated: It would definitely be considered terrorism today.

Super disingenuous in my view to have some purity test around renouncing violence against a white supremacist state. Is political violence not justified in that context? Were violent European revolutions against their monarchs all terroristic? Honestly surprised to see so many apartheid apologists in these replies.

I'm not passing judgement on his stance, the ANC's actions, and even on whether terrorism is a good or bad thing. I'm merely stating that he did have prolonged support of the entity that we today call terrorism.

Re: Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

#275

Post by chuckee »

skinkestek wrote: post #269
chuckee wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Intel has a significant presence there That's a bit tail wagging the dog, isn't it? Intel has no trouble getting engineers to immigrate to the US when it comes to other countries. > boycott Israel There's a lot of room between "unquestioning military support" and "boycott".

> Intel has no trouble getting engineers to immigrate to the US when it comes to other countries. For some reason Intel keep a significant presence in Israel. I'm not an Israeli and not an Intel employee so I can only guess that they find it beneficial somehow. > There's a lot of room between "unquestioning military support" and "boycott". Yes?

> For some reason Intel keep a significant presence in Israel.

A great many US companies have a significant presence in a great many countries, that receive far less in military aid and support.

> Yes?

Meaning that boycotts against Israel are irrelevant to what the US gains by supporting Israel - I assume that's why you brought them up?

Re: Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

#276

Post by seoaeu »

VictorPath wrote: post #162
yonixw wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Molotov != Protest 2) > follow the history of the region > terrorize their neighbors Counter example: 2005: Israel unilateral dismantling of the 21 Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip 2007: Hamas takeover of Gaza 2007: Gaza Blockade I do not think we see the history of the region in the same way.

> 2007: Hamas takeover of Gaza As you mention Hamas, it gives me the opportunity to point out that Israel bankrolled Hamas founder Sheikh Yassin even prior to the founding of Hamas. This was admitted by former military governor of Gaza Yitzhak Segev and other Israeli government and military officials. Israel wanted to undermine secular political Palestinians and empower Islamist political Palestinians. Once successfu…

> Israel bankrolled Hamas founder Sheikh Yassin even prior to the founding of Hamas

Yes, prior to the founding of Hamas, Israel was fighting secular terrorist groups and gave support to other (less violent) Palestinian factions in hope that those other factions could gain control and bring peace. That backfired miserably. But it wasn't some sort of nefarious conspiracy like you are alleging.

Re: Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

#277

Post by jjcon »

asadlionpk wrote: post #251
jjcon wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really want Apple to ban more apps based on political actions? The HN can be really regressive sometimes =/

Depends on what you call political action. If Talibans published a similar app would Apple allow it? Why is Israel allowed to have an app to censor their victims? That’s bias.

I would hope so - its not their job to play world government

Re: Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

#278

Post by whimsicalism »

BeetleB wrote: post #274
whimsicalism wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Super disingenuous in my view to have some purity test around renouncing violence against a white supremacist state. Is political violence not justified in that context? Were violent European revolutions against their monarchs all terroristic? Honestly surprised to see so many apartheid apologists in these replies.

I'm not passing judgement on his stance, the ANC's actions, and even on whether terrorism is a good or bad thing. I'm merely stating that he did have prolonged support of the entity that we today call terrorism.

Terrorism is not an entity, so I don't understand what you are saying.

If you are saying that the ANCs actions make them objectively terrorists, I would say that I've never seen the term terrorist used in an objective and consistent manner.

Re: Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

#279

Post by LegitShady »

ashtonkem wrote: post #258
LegitShady wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not what aboutism, it's the introduction of reality to your 'logic'. You are asking why you don't have access to the evidence into an investigation into a designated terrorist group, and being told 'tough', and now demanding standards of evidence in other countries meet your needs. Again, no country in the world cares about your wish to have access to terror investigation evidence. None. Zero.

> It's not what aboutism, it's the introduction of reality to your 'logic'. Again, please follow the rules of this forum. You’re pushing the norms of politeness here very, very hard. > You are asking why you don't have access to the evidence into an investigation into a designated terrorist group I actually never asked that question. What I actually said was “if the state doesn’t provide evidence, then we’re under no…

It's not your state, and your state wouldn't give you confidential evidence into a terrorism investigation either. You can imagine there are plenty of informants and intelligence taps to which the state doesn't want to give clues, right?

Why do you think this foreign state isn't as capable of dismissing your demands as you are of saying 'tough' to them? That's the issue with your original 'tough' comment. It's just internet bravado, and doesn't survive contact with reality.

Re: Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

#280

Post by joelbluminator »

whimsicalism wrote: post #271
joelbluminator wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was the violence always against the state or was it also against innocent civilians? Not really the same thing.

Sorry, trying to follow the threads here. Because some violence was perpetrated against civilians, I should thus expect Nelson Mandela to denounce all violence against the apartheid state and condemn him for failure to do so? Why is the same charge not levied against the apartheid South African state, which refused to renounce violence after committing violence against its own black citizens (forcible imprisonment, b…

I don't know what you should do, I do think it's complicated.
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