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Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

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Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#271

Post by herbst »

angelzen wrote: post #128
michaelt wrote: post #40

As a part-time libertarian, one of the frustrating parts of the pandemic has been discovering how many people need the nanny state to step to stop them punching themselves in the face. Near the start of the pandemic, I thought the most intrusive state powers would barely be needed. Why would you ever need to make a vaccine mandatory? What rational person would refuse a lifesaving medicine offered to them for free? We…

There are vaccines. Everyone that wants a vaccine already got it or can easily get it. People say they are extremely good at eliminate severe covid, that's what I got one myself. But at this point taking a vaccine or not is a personal decision. People are punching themselves in the face all the time, see obesity crisis for example. Should we ban hamburgers & fries next?

> Everyone that wants a vaccine already got it or can easily get it.

Assuming you have luck and live in a rich country that offers one of the actually working vaccines.

Everyone is still a very far stretch

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#272

Post by enkid »

Ancapistani wrote: post #227
fanf2 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you've had COVID, a vaccine can help with Long COVID symptoms, and it can reduce the risk of reinfection, so it's still better to be vaccinated than to catch COVID a second time.

The vaccine reportedly can also trigger a more severe immune response in people who already have naturally-acquired antibodies. Try to find good statistics on the rates and severity of adverse reactions for people who have already have COVID. I've had very little success.

All evidence is that it still is a greater risk to not get vaccinated if you've had COVID than to get vaccinated. A lot of bullshit "reportedly" happens. That's why the CDC sets guidelines based on the based scientific evidence available and says you should get the vaccine whether or not you had COVID. Stop spreading disinformation.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#273

Post by Broken_Hippo »

csomar wrote: post #257
michaelt wrote: post #40

As a part-time libertarian, one of the frustrating parts of the pandemic has been discovering how many people need the nanny state to step to stop them punching themselves in the face. Near the start of the pandemic, I thought the most intrusive state powers would barely be needed. Why would you ever need to make a vaccine mandatory? What rational person would refuse a lifesaving medicine offered to them for free? We…

The whole point of democracy and freedom is that you convince people with words and not with sticks. If people are refusing a vaccine, that means you (as the political class, media class, scientific class) have failed your job to educate a segment of your population. It is easy to blame people for what could be your shortcomings. But this is not 5% or 10% of your population, it seems to be around 40-50%. This is more…

"The whole point of democracy and freedom is that you convince people with words and not with sticks."

This is just false, though. The whole point of democracy is to allow folks to have a voice in their politics, not to avoid forcing folks to do things. We force folks to do things all of the time. This is what laws do: Sometimes they are easy to follow, but we also know that if we don't have, say, building codes and food safety laws that some folks will cut too many corners building or add weird things to bread (like in the 1800's).

Simply put, you aren't always going to be able to use words. And it seems vaccinations are similar.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#274

Post by enkid »

herbst wrote: post #262
Ancapistani wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vaccine reportedly can also trigger a more severe immune response in people who already have naturally-acquired antibodies. Try to find good statistics on the rates and severity of adverse reactions for people who have already have COVID. I've had very little success.

This. And generally the possibility of more severe immune responses after vaxing. (Like with dengue for example) It is obvious these are a problem, and it's obvious we do not talk a out that right now. Saying the vaccine is a perfect solution that will solve all our issues is just dellusional

There is no evidence of that with this vaccine, and with the number of people who have received it we would have collected that evidence by now, so stop spreading hypotheticals.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#275

Post by herbst »

peteradio wrote: post #158
thatswrong0 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the long term safety data on catching / surviving COVID itself? Long COVID seems to affect between 10-30% of people who catch COVID. Why do I never hear anti-vaxxers being concerned about that?

Because its mostly undefined what long-covid even means. In the worst cases it means organ damage, but Ill bet you anything those are not anywhere near 10-30% of cases. More likely people randomly feel like shit for a while sometimes, like every other year in my adult life.

Swine flu took me several months to fully recover. Nobody made this a topic back then but i know some other people who too had issues for months.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#276

Post by Ekaros »

wsc981 wrote: post #270
kxyvr wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think part of the difficulty with the libertarian point of view regarding the COVID vaccine is that not all parties are given a free choice either. For example, if someone refuses a vaccine, should an emergency room be free to refuse care? Currently, they can not due to EMTALA. That's not to say that it's unreasonable to question and philosophize the implications of a mandate. At the same time, barring a more effec…

> For example, if someone refuses a vaccine, should an emergency room be free to refuse care? Currently, they can not due to EMTALA. Should not refuse care. A lot of people have unhealthy lifestyles (eating lots of processed foods, sugary soda drinks, don’t exercise, smoke, …). We also don’t refuse healthcare to these people even if they make poor life choices. Since many people on this site live and work in the USA,…

Also that leads to questions like should we refuse care for healthy but dangerous activities like swimming and drowning. Or breaking a leg or arm during sports? Or concussions? These clearly could have been avoided by choosing safer options or ways. Thus should be refused care?

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#277

Post by jokteur »

betterunix2 wrote: post #152
gregwebs wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your statement is reasonable for sterilizing vaccines, and maybe even for this vaccine before the Delta variant. However, this vaccine is non-sterilizing, meaning that it does not stop people from getting infected in the nose but stops progression to the lower respiratory tract thus preventing hospitalization. Before the delta variant the vaccines also worked surprisingly well at reducing infections, but with the Del…

Citation needed? A quick search turns up study after study from one country after another finding that COVID vaccines both reduce the rate of infection and reduce the rate of transmission even with the delta variant. You are right that people are overstating what the vaccine does, and that is where politicians actually have a chance to do something useful. Unfortunately there is a major political party that is doing…

Here is an article last updated august 13 2021: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02054-z

"But studies on Alpha and other variants cannot be easily generalized to Delta, says Steven Riley, an infectious-diseases researcher at Imperial College London. [...] So far, there are no published data on how vaccines affect infections and infectiousness with Delta, but a UK study5 published on 21 July shows that the Pfizer–BioNTech and Oxford–AstraZeneca vaccines both protect slightly less well against symptomatic disease caused by Delta than against that caused by Alpha. This could also mean a drop in how well they protect against transmission of Delta, but there is still a lot of uncertainty, says Dean.

[...] Even if vaccines are just as effective at preventing infections with Delta as with earlier variants, if Delta is more infectious, transmission in households could still increase, says Dean."

I think the danger is that often the vaccine is presented as THE solution, i.e. when you get it you don't have to worry about anything. I know far more people who are vaccinated and just stopped being careful (social distancing, masks, ...) than people who haven't vaccinated that aren't careful.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#278

Post by Broken_Hippo »

cmsj wrote: post #260
muttantt wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If something is free, you are the product.

Air is free.

Lots of stuff is free without someone being a product.

I can make art for free if I really put my mind to it, and leave it in the forest for others to possibly enjoy.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#279

Post by enkid »

angelzen wrote: post #128
michaelt wrote: post #40

As a part-time libertarian, one of the frustrating parts of the pandemic has been discovering how many people need the nanny state to step to stop them punching themselves in the face. Near the start of the pandemic, I thought the most intrusive state powers would barely be needed. Why would you ever need to make a vaccine mandatory? What rational person would refuse a lifesaving medicine offered to them for free? We…

There are vaccines. Everyone that wants a vaccine already got it or can easily get it. People say they are extremely good at eliminate severe covid, that's what I got one myself. But at this point taking a vaccine or not is a personal decision. People are punching themselves in the face all the time, see obesity crisis for example. Should we ban hamburgers & fries next?

People aren't allowed to drive drunk not because it's a risk to themselves, but because it's a risk to other people. This is the same with the vaccine. You are putting at risk children, the immunocompromised, or people who have legitimate medical reasons they can't get the vaccine, do your logic falls apart. Not to mention the risks and costs associated with an overburdened healthcare system.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#280

Post by fartingflamingo »

kxyvr wrote: post #233
version_five wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a libertarian and I think choices should be up to the individual, because it's never ok to have a political group decide for you what is good or bad. It's antithetical to western liberalism. My rant aside, I think there are better and worse ways to infringe on people's liberty when needed. And given the way the winds are blowing, it would be much better to enforce vaccination at the federal level, i.e. compel peo…

I think part of the difficulty with the libertarian point of view regarding the COVID vaccine is that not all parties are given a free choice either. For example, if someone refuses a vaccine, should an emergency room be free to refuse care? Currently, they can not due to EMTALA. That's not to say that it's unreasonable to question and philosophize the implications of a mandate. At the same time, barring a more effec…

Let's word this more sharply.

Hospital capacity being limited, should ill vaccine refusers be getting priority as they are getting right now?

What if you get super unlucky, and you get contaminated and severely ill despite vaccination? Will they kick an unvaccinated covid patient from the one respirator?

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