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Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

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Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I certainly understand bad PR (a surprising number of people lack critical thinking skills), what is wrong or biased about hiring for coding positions based on merit-based performance on an objective coding test? Anybody regardless of background or group membership that passes will be hired, meaning it is fair and unbiased, by definition -- that is the diversity program, and if there is some lack of objectivity…

You really need to interrogate "merit" and "objective". Nominally objective standards have long been used to advance racial discrimination in the US. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_test You should also look up the extensive critiques of meritocracy as a concept. There's a lot of literature there. Further, I know of no major tech company who uses a nominally "objective coding test" as the only cri…

No, coding tests are not the "literacy tests" you have described, and if they were, why would some minorities be performing even better than Caucasians on them?

Coding tests examine the type of work actually required to be done on the job (as coders), and they have been correlated with post-hire performance successfully. Someone who is not familiar with efficient data structures will not write scalable code and will end up creating a burden on their teammates during on-call, for example. Asking someone to solve an engineering problem with a provably correct answer is an objective test for hiring engineers, and I will have a difficult time continuing to engage with anyone who counteracts this basis of reality and truth.

When I was hired there were three coding test rounds and one interpersonal round. You might argue that the latter is where racial discrimination seeps in, as well as the recruiter outreach step itself, but somehow I am optimistic that a bunch of tolerant Californians have moved past applying a Literacy Test here already by hiring a majority immigrant / minority workforce. In my situation, my recruiter was also an Asian-American minority.

Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#272
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don’t think any algo should be in the business of labeling any people period. You’re proving my point. What you’re saying is that we should stop any algo from categorizing anything just to avoid a 0.00001% of hurting someone’s feelings. People like you are going to bring back the dark ages. Go back to Twitter. Can’t we just treat these incidents as bugs and fix them instead of just fueling the outrage machine?

I'm not proving any point of yours as you seem to be set on your arguments without reading what I say: I'm talking about labeling people here not just anything in general.

Monkeys aren't people. You can't label monkeys without risking to label people, therefore you're suggesting we stop labeling anything that could be mistaken for people. I'm sure you've seen "Tag this person" areas in photos that lack people entirely. Is this Mike or just a piece of wood?

Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a contrarian take that may get me downvoted and unfairly labeled, but I encourage critical thinking instead: I've struggled with people telling me that these FAANG companies have "diversity problems," as a person of color myself. A majority of software engineers are female and male immigrants from East Asia and South Asia. These population centers are some of the most diverse regions of the world. The enginee…

Nobody is saying they don't count toward diversity. What people are saying is that the conspicuous exclusion of less favored racial groups does not get erased because they have some people from other groups. Put more frankly, the success of recent immigrants does not erase America's long history of brutality and exploitation toward blacks and Latin Americans. The latter is a problem that we have to solve regardless.…

Sure, and we are discussing the existence of racial discrimination in engineering hiring at top tech companies, not American history or South Asian culture. Asian immigrants on H1-B conducting coding tests as interviewers at FAANG did not involve themselves in the American Jim Crowe south, for example. It's saddening to see America's own past being used to justify discrimination in the present, even to people who aren't originally from the US.

You might not share the beliefs of others that are gainfully rallying behind diversity as a cause to justify penalizing some minority groups for "doing too well" and bolstering others (the literal definition of discrimination), but it IS happening -- and certainly more people than "nobody" are backing it, provoking my original statements. Someone had to put Prop 16 on the ballot, for example (which was thankfully voted against by a large margin of fellow CA Democrats).

Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is literally no right answer, the very nature of modern diversity is that it will always be a moving target. That is until we get over the entire concept of diversity which is racist / discriminatory at it's core.

That's incorrect. The main use of diversity is in an antiracist fashion. I'd suggest you read one of Kendi's books. Stamped from the Beginning has clear and readable descriptions of the difference, but it's a relatively long work, so you might start with one of his shorter books.

Instead of dismissing the argument with a tawdry negated statement and a book suggestion, do you have some thoughts of your own with this matter, or at least some kind of summary?

Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#275
post #15

This happened to both Google Photos and Flickr too. Which makes it an inexcusable mistake to make in 2021 - how are you not testing for this? Google Photos in 2015: https://www.wired.com/story/when-it-comes-to-gorillas-google... Flickr in 2015: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/ne...

>how are you not testing for this?

i wonder how testing for that looks and sounds in corporate environment. It may as well be an area similar to patents - you pretend that you never heard, never discussed, God forbid any mentioning in corporate email/chat/etc. or clicking on a link from inside a corporate network,...

Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's incorrect. The main use of diversity is in an antiracist fashion. I'd suggest you read one of Kendi's books. Stamped from the Beginning has clear and readable descriptions of the difference, but it's a relatively long work, so you might start with one of his shorter books.

Instead of dismissing the argument with a tawdry negated statement and a book suggestion, do you have some thoughts of your own with this matter, or at least some kind of summary?

No.

Long ago I learned that it was rarely worth my time to try to argue online people out of their ignorance. A rando with a throwaway account, a strident tone, and a fair bit of ignorance on the topic is almost a guarantee that that's no point.

If you're interested in knowing something about the topic, you'll do some work. If you aren't, no amount of me spoon-feeding you summaries of serious scholarly works will change that.

If you do end up learning something and have questions, feel free to email me. I'm glad to discuss the topics with people who are serious about it.

Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is saying they don't count toward diversity. What people are saying is that the conspicuous exclusion of less favored racial groups does not get erased because they have some people from other groups. Put more frankly, the success of recent immigrants does not erase America's long history of brutality and exploitation toward blacks and Latin Americans. The latter is a problem that we have to solve regardless.…

Sure, and we are discussing the existence of racial discrimination in engineering hiring at top tech companies, not American history or South Asian culture. Asian immigrants on H1-B conducting coding tests as interviewers at FAANG did not involve themselves in the American Jim Crowe south, for example. It's saddening to see America's own past being used to justify discrimination in the present, even to people who are…

The notion that American tech companies are somehow entirely separate from and unrelated to American history is quite a belief to hold. It's not one that stands up to any understanding of the topic, alas. But since that's a hill you've chosen to die on, I'll leave you to it.

Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really need to interrogate "merit" and "objective". Nominally objective standards have long been used to advance racial discrimination in the US. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_test You should also look up the extensive critiques of meritocracy as a concept. There's a lot of literature there. Further, I know of no major tech company who uses a nominally "objective coding test" as the only cri…

No, coding tests are not the "literacy tests" you have described, and if they were, why would some minorities be performing even better than Caucasians on them? Coding tests examine the type of work actually required to be done on the job (as coders), and they have been correlated with post-hire performance successfully. Someone who is not familiar with efficient data structures will not write scalable code and will…

I didn't say coding tests were literacy tests. You also seem a lot like somebody who has not hired people, which would explain your poor understanding of how hiring actually works.

Since my comments here don't seem to be making any sense to you, I'm not seeing the point in trying again.

Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of dismissing the argument with a tawdry negated statement and a book suggestion, do you have some thoughts of your own with this matter, or at least some kind of summary?

No. Long ago I learned that it was rarely worth my time to try to argue online people out of their ignorance. A rando with a throwaway account, a strident tone, and a fair bit of ignorance on the topic is almost a guarantee that that's no point. If you're interested in knowing something about the topic, you'll do some work. If you aren't, no amount of me spoon-feeding you summaries of serious scholarly works will cha…

What distinction does a throwaway account make on an otherwise-anonymous online forum? No need to take discussion offline. Within the next decade, I am in confident the pendulum will swing the other way, and the people who are able to vocalize their opinions now in public will be the ones needing throwaway accounts.

Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, and we are discussing the existence of racial discrimination in engineering hiring at top tech companies, not American history or South Asian culture. Asian immigrants on H1-B conducting coding tests as interviewers at FAANG did not involve themselves in the American Jim Crowe south, for example. It's saddening to see America's own past being used to justify discrimination in the present, even to people who are…

The notion that American tech companies are somehow entirely separate from and unrelated to American history is quite a belief to hold. It's not one that stands up to any understanding of the topic, alas. But since that's a hill you've chosen to die on, I'll leave you to it.

If America is not the right place for you, I would suggest immigrating yourself. Being self-hating is not an external problem.
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