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If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

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Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#271
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medical doctors have licenses which include exams and all sort of other barriers before they’re a ‘real’ independent doctor.

I'd be curious to hear peoples thoughts if they would subject themselves to this sort of professional board and licensing for software. There's clearly a pre-determined set of information and skills that are fundamental enough to be tested, but it is also fairly creative and subjective at the end of the day.

I would likely take issue with whatever criteria people chose for judging someone's software engineering ability. Creating the best performing system is rarely anyone's goal (not that performance should be discounted,) they want to make something with the hard to quantify qualities of robustness, scalability, maintainability and expandability, to different degrees. They also often want to use languages or frameworks (or supporting software like databases) based on what boils down to fashion. Often the most desirable quality for candidates is an ability to learn and leverage new tools, given varied and shifting standards of good design, which again is hard to quantify.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#272
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood the heavy emphasis on in-interview coding or brain teasers. To the extent that I've participated in the hiring process (both as an IC and a manager), 80% of the interview is assessing culture/personality/ethic fit; that is, the basic "do I want to work with this person" question. The technical competence check is all retrospective, hearing them talk about prior projects and what the design and i…

That seems like a reasonable approach if you have the right skills for it. My problem with such an approach would be that I'd not feel comfortable to make an overall evaluation of a person based on a short interaction. Having a clear cut process with well defined metrics provides me with more confidence that I'm evaluating candidates fairly. Without it I'd be worried that my rating would be too biased by superficial…

That is a risk, definitely. And I think that kind of thing is probably in part why Google and others who followed them ended up where they did— wanting a system that was completely impersonal, quantifiable, and which could be said to be 100% meritocratic.

Which is noble, I suppose. But clearly lots of people still felt that it was unfair and alienating; closer in spirit to a hazing than a good-faith evaluation.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#273
post #49
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A team of well managed mediocre members will be less of a headache and ultimately more value to a company than a team of rockstars. Besides all that, mediocre literally means average. You (collective) should be fine with average and stop overloading terms making general life more difficult than it needs to be.

Exactly this. Mismanaged rockstars going off in different directions is chaos. I have no clue how the term 'mediocre' has come to mean essentially bottom of the barrel proficiency that is still the minimum hiring level quality. The top dog companies can be elitist, but when the company is "MegaCrudSoftware Inc.", it's just plain narcissism. Many Reddit/HN posters exude this in the individual sense and believe they're…

Top tier engineers are essentially lubricant. They ideally bring experience and talent to bear on the current site of friction in a business. Even better if they circulate like lubricant.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead we have to simulate work samples through whiteboard coding, pair programming sessions, take home coding projects, coding knowledge tests, etc. Very small sample size but we've had good results skipping coding exams entirely, and simply talking through some scenarios with candidates. - give them a hypothetical problem ("the page is loading slowly") and role play how they'd troubleshoot it - do they understand…

> - give them a hypothetical problem ("the page is loading slowly") and role play how they'd troubleshoot it - do they understand how different bits of the stack fit together? have they ruled out network issues before digging into the code? etc. I don't know. I think I'm pretty good at troubleshooting on the job (since I can be the one to troubleshoot & solve the trickier bugs) but thinking about doing it in an inter…

page loads slowly ... it is the database query man ... make sure to join the fields properly :-)

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In an environment I am unfamiliar with I had an technical interview with a company early last week, we did a shared session using VS Code. The interviewer wrote the function signature, and I filled out the implementation. I did great, according to the interviewer, and moved to the next set of interviews. The next interviewer, which turned out was also technical, ended up opening up a shared Google Docs to write cod…

reminds of of the systems design interview I had with Google, the interviewer had his webcam off, barely spoke English and had me trying to make diagrams of system architecture in google docs with no reference of what he was actually looking for it was like sitting in a confusing nightmare for an hour

I had an interview with Gitlab like that years ago. Here, write some chef with only the vaguest spec - even after quizzing the interviewer to ascertain requirements.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#276
Outside of the browser space there's a lot more opportunity to land work, since there's _far less_ competition for jobs.

Thanks to the billions of dollars spent and hundreds of millions of hours expended, anyone who takes a four week bootcamp can become a passable frontend web developer. The tooling is just that simple and accessible. And so there's a lot of folks taking such bootcamps, and employers have no lack of choice for roles.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bad doctor is relative. I expect that most doctors who have pass through that gauntlet can pass the doctor equivalent of fizzbuzz, which already is a lot different than our industry.

A doctor equivalent of fizzbuzz could be “what do you prescribe for a viral infection with no indication of a secondary infection” and from what I’ve heard there are a lot of doctors failing that one during the COVID pandemic by prescribing antibiotics.

They are highly effective at making patients stop begging for antibiotics they don't need. Patient satisfaction with their doctor has nothing to do with medical outcomes.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#278
Just because you have a degree or think you are a software developer, it doesn't mean you are any good at it and should be hired. Companies are substantially better off having fewer developers than having bad ones.

Bad developers take a lot of time to train, manage, QA their work, fix their work, fix their work again, and then finally someone else just does it. They are in fact a net NEGATIVE impact on the team. You are actually better off without them. They actually slow you down instead of improving productivity.

It's akin to hiring a cook who screws up every meal they make. Not only did I pay them to do so, now I have to pay others cleanup their mess.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead we have to simulate work samples through whiteboard coding, pair programming sessions, take home coding projects, coding knowledge tests, etc. Very small sample size but we've had good results skipping coding exams entirely, and simply talking through some scenarios with candidates. - give them a hypothetical problem ("the page is loading slowly") and role play how they'd troubleshoot it - do they understand…

> - give them a hypothetical problem ("the page is loading slowly") and role play how they'd troubleshoot it - do they understand how different bits of the stack fit together? have they ruled out network issues before digging into the code? etc. I don't know. I think I'm pretty good at troubleshooting on the job (since I can be the one to troubleshoot & solve the trickier bugs) but thinking about doing it in an inter…

I'd really do well on these types of interview questions. I've spent a great deal of time troubleshooting the most difficult software issues for the teams I've been on. I'd rather not dox myself here, but troubleshooting is a pretty big thing I've done for the past 10 years.

Just today I discovered the biggest issue we've been encountering on our platform, and I'm not even in a developer role here. The developers didn't track it down since I got them involved, but here I am coming in and figuring it out, and it didn't even require access to the source code or how the platform works.

At the end of the day these types of issues come down to creativity and outside the box thinking than it does knowing how the specific software platform works. Looking at bugs and issues in a way that isn't subject to preconceived ideas and existing knowledge.

Sounds like a fun interview for someone like me lol

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#280
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medical doctors have licenses which include exams and all sort of other barriers before they’re a ‘real’ independent doctor.

I'd be curious to hear peoples thoughts if they would subject themselves to this sort of professional board and licensing for software. There's clearly a pre-determined set of information and skills that are fundamental enough to be tested, but it is also fairly creative and subjective at the end of the day.

Given the amount of people with CS degrees who fail the most basic interviews, it would be hard to set something good up. I assume universities are trying to solve the same problems as the hypothetical board setting up this test.

That, and the field moving so quickly and being so broad. I interview for ML. I assume interviews for front end are extremely different.

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