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How The Hell Is This My Fault?

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271–280 of 307 posts

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#271
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the manner of his defense doesn't help his image as a drama queen, but he's probably fine with that.

He's not a drama queen. The people saying so are the VCs upset after he posted about their secret conspiracy meetings, which they denied, and it all was true. The VC community has it in for him since then and will do anything to attack the guy, who is one of the only credible writers left in this field full of vipers and narcissists.

I am not questioning his credibility, I'm questioning his presentation. I'm doing it several levels deep in a comment thread because I don't think it's an incredibly important point, though I do think it's worth making.

For example:

"1. What the hell?" is a dramatic and confrontational expression of anger, frustration, and indignation. Justified or not, it reads like a flame war, not journalism.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant for the company. It's not needed to involve the company's money in this case. As a side note, how big are those appartments in San Francisco? Here in Paris for that kind of money each month you get 60 square meters and no single person can afford those. Most live in a third or a half of this surface.

An apartment at that cost in SF could be anywhere from 45-60 square meters. Here is a typical listing: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/apa/2521648827.html

That's very interesting, thanks for showing a typical example. They state they require verifiable 3.5 x income to rent ratio. This means you must make at least $2395 x 3.5 x 12 = $100,590 in order to be allowed to rent this dinky old 1 bedroom that appears to have been constructed on the roof of a parking garage.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#273
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the most intelligent comment I've seen about this whole business. The phenomenon isn't limited to YC companies-- we saw it in e.g. the reaction to Zuckerberg (at 20 or whatever) calling users "dumb fucks" and to Biz and Ev (jokingly) asking if they could cut in the food line at Facebook-- but the problem is at its worst with YC companies because we have to scale back on moderation. When users work themselves…

A comment that broadly accuses the HN community of jealousy, and questions the motives of everyone commenting, is the most intelligent comment you've seen about this? Huh. > ...an ordinary issue... Nice. I think this is a good illustration of part of what's wrong here. To the woman whose life has been upended by this, this is not "an ordinary issue". Similarly, everyone that's said so far that this has not been handl…

A comment that broadly accuses the HN community of jealousy, and questions the motives of everyone commenting, is the most intelligent comment you've seen about this?

Actually, it is. Nobody here should be making personal attacks or accusations without knowing the full story. And nobody here knows the full story, yet everyone feels entitled to act as Airbnb's PR team. It reminds me of the redesign attempts where the guy comes in and says "here's what you should do!" and they don't really understand why the decisions were formed or what lead up to them. Weren't we just here with Groupon and Yelp being ripped apart for supposedly being involved in extortion? It turned out to be a bunch of flailing business owners who were on their way down, Groupon and Yelp were just the catalyst. For every one of those complaints, you can find another happy business owner who says those companies have helped them tremendously. What do we see now? This woman is pissed off, and you can see another person who had the same problem happen to his apartment. Everything stolen, horrible experience. With meth addicts. Exact same story, Airbnb settled, he's happy and using Airbnb again.

Airbnb has no financial obligation to this woman. Yet we all still feel entitled to let them know how to run their business because of what happened to one of their customers, and with hardly any information. As if that's bad enough, some people have gone as far as calling Brian psychotic. I hope you realize how absurd that sounds to those of us who know him.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#274
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the most intelligent comment I've seen about this whole business. The phenomenon isn't limited to YC companies-- we saw it in e.g. the reaction to Zuckerberg (at 20 or whatever) calling users "dumb fucks" and to Biz and Ev (jokingly) asking if they could cut in the food line at Facebook-- but the problem is at its worst with YC companies because we have to scale back on moderation. When users work themselves…

Well, this certainly clears it up. To those of you who have been concerned with Airbnb and PG's actions over the past few days... it's just because you're jealous and stupid. Classy, Paul.

It's a kind of stupidity I myself have fallen prey to in the past. One of the things I learned from being one of the earliest users of reddit is how easy it is to let indignation cloud one's judgment. Time after time I'd be led into angrily upvoting some story, only to learn later that things were not at all as they seemed initially.

After many years of being faked out, I gradually learned to reserve judgment when my indignation buttons were (intentionally or unintentionally) being pressed, but I still had incomplete information.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#275
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the most intelligent comment I've seen about this whole business. The phenomenon isn't limited to YC companies-- we saw it in e.g. the reaction to Zuckerberg (at 20 or whatever) calling users "dumb fucks" and to Biz and Ev (jokingly) asking if they could cut in the food line at Facebook-- but the problem is at its worst with YC companies because we have to scale back on moderation. When users work themselves…

A comment that broadly accuses the HN community of jealousy, and questions the motives of everyone commenting, is the most intelligent comment you've seen about this? Huh. > ...an ordinary issue... Nice. I think this is a good illustration of part of what's wrong here. To the woman whose life has been upended by this, this is not "an ordinary issue". Similarly, everyone that's said so far that this has not been handl…

By ordinary issue I meant one not involving a YC company. E.g. software patents.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#276
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know if there's a solution. There's a very obvious solution: Airbnb need to do the right thing. Right now. Publicly and privately. It's really not hard. Whatever they've done wrong in the past few weeks, they can make right pretty quickly, and the conversation will shift just as quickly. Until then? All public evidence indicates they're still doing the wrong thing. Really, what do you expect? This is an iss…

You didn't read his comment. I'll simplify it for you: you have no idea whether Airbnb has done the right thing by this customer, but you seem to have no trouble telling everyone how simple this issue is to dispose of.

Has Airbnb even claimed to have actually done anything? I've seen empty words and no action or even claim of action. Have I missed something?

The full story is pretty irrelevant. What we have is clearly sufficient to know that Airbnb doesn't have a clue how to handle this, either with regard to the particular customer, or the wider PR disaster.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#277
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, this certainly clears it up. To those of you who have been concerned with Airbnb and PG's actions over the past few days... it's just because you're jealous and stupid. Classy, Paul.

It's a kind of stupidity I myself have fallen prey to in the past. One of the things I learned from being one of the earliest users of reddit is how easy it is to let indignation cloud one's judgment. Time after time I'd be led into angrily upvoting some story, only to learn later that things were not at all as they seemed initially. After many years of being faked out, I gradually learned to reserve judgment when my…

I'm more curious than angry, I want to know AirBnb's side of the story.

Unfortunately brianchesky's comments here are brief and he ignores the replies:

http://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=brianchesky

AirBnb are giving low-key responses given the coverage it's received. Perhaps this is for privacy or legal reasons, or for PR / reputation reasons, or they don't think their response will be perceived as adequate by the so-called "angry mob" here. Maybe it's just they don't think it's any of our business how they deal with this situation.

The incomplete information you mention is frustrating. I'm sure many people here like me would like to know how a company should deal with this kind of PR - and personal - crisis, and were hopeful we'd see more of this played out in public after EJ's blog. The visibility this story has received from the upvotes on the TechCrunch, FT, and blog post stories has led to us getting more information than we otherwise would have had.

Are we really being manipulated or "faked out" into voting, or is it not a rational response given that the visibility tends to lead to more information leaking out?

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#278
Let me start with a very simple sentence: people are good.

The AirBnB service depends on this simple premise. This is the first axiom of their business. No matter how insured everyone is, the axiom has to hold. Otherwise, you end up with an infinite streak of disputes.

If you invite strangers to your home, then you assume that people are good, either. It is that simple. Frankly, only a good person would invite strangers to her home. It might be slightly too naive, but it does not change the fact it takes a lot of good faith, and trust. (It might be too much, I agree, but it is not her fault, as it was not BitCoin begginers' mistake to commit into the idea of the digital currency _too much_. It is more experienced ones' responsibility to share their knowledge.)

Once you find the property destroyed, your world view is going to collapse. It turns out, basically, that some people are not good. What's worse, bad people were physically close to you, just few days ago.

It is _extremely_ stressful.

Here and there I've read comments suggesting that EJ extrapolates a bit. Even if so, so what? She is so distressed, I'm very surprised that there's so little understanding about her current position.

The way the AirBnB folks behave does not reveal that they do genuiely believe that people are good. The way the public sees it right now is that they're very cautious, as well as lawyers, and all that stuff, is rather a defensive, and unsafe, behaviour.

While I somehow understand them, the problem is that the service relies on the assumption that people are good. After all, it is about _sharing your property with complete strangers from Internet_ (no matter if it is your home, or the other one.)

The reason why the story reads so bad is that it mixes up the social context of sharing per se, with the formal context, relying on lawyers and PR firms. All comments points out that getting her a new property sets a precedence for further refunds are totally off the took. To come up with such comment, it takes to view the world as a distrustful place. The view that, basically, contradicts the whole idea.

To me, the whole story is about nerds facing social complexities. The business they've created is not about numbers (i.e. brokering rooms, without having to incur the costs of building a hotel), but about sharing. The sharing, in nearly all cases, of single most valuable thing in your life.

I'm so frightened with lack of common sense.

First of all, the AirBnB folks should ensure her that people are good. I mean, people _are_ good. That the unfortunate event was a nightmarish accident, not the correct image of the world (no BS here, as, statistically speaking, the event is an outlier.)

Ensuring someone that the world is a trustful place definitely does not involve communicating publicly, or privately, with lawyers, or PR companies. I don't know how to explain this but it is all about showing that you're a human (of course, it still makes sense to speak with a lawyer before, though to avoid some simple misunderstaindg.)

We don't know her. We have no idea what are the actions necessary in order to make her safe. I think, though, it takes nothing more than showing your real, not faked, care, and, what comes as a surprise, asking her, not a PR company.

Once this is solved, the community should be somehow informed about the solution. If she wants to, EJ could write the explanation. She would have control over the amount of private informations shared, giving her power she has lost due to the abuse. Also, the really case closed means a good story about the world within that people are good.

Personally, I think it makes a lot of sense to offer her a job. She is an extremely talented writer, and seems to care about people. The AirBnB business operates heavily in the social context, so so good person, coming from inside, would be priceless for a now a bit dry company.

Of course, meanwhile it makes sense to get constant updates on legal implications. This is mostly the internal process, though. It takes very little to commit an honest legal mistake, so it cannot hurt (keep in mind to ask EJ is she needs legal help, too.) The same goes with the PR firm. I'm under impression, though, they would recommend similar steps to me. The PR folks I know are really good people.

It might be that EJ does not want to speak with the founders anymore. There is already a lot of misunderstanding, and I would understand her if they've lost her trust. If so, either the investors or the directors should step in. I realize that it sounds _too much_. However, PG is already involved, and members of both groups signal that there is a more mature instance that overlooks the things to be fine.

I do not believe that the solution cannot be reached. It does. It takes, though, understanding that people are good.

(On a more formal side, the reason why it was really a bad idea to mention lawyers publicly is that the AirBnB itself operates within a grey area. Depending on the local laws, the service is either illegal or not covered with all hospitality laws.

It means that signing up the property to the service takes valuying the social relationships more than legal matters. It cannot be otherwise given that, it turns out, some guests were completely anonymous (guests of the guests?), to say nothing about lack of cameras in most buildings.

The lawyers, and formalities, raised so frequently create a state of understandable confusion. If renting the property is dubiously insurable (I'm not sure whether insurers were that happy if knew that they insure hotel rooms per se; the fact has to spread, yet, though), and there are no legal protections, there is nothing but the social trust to rely on.)

That said, I wish all the parties involved the best.

I wish EJ only good things from now. ;-) And, I wish AirBnB more luck, as they've faced a huge sh*t-storm, and I like their service for the reason it relies on _good_ behaviour.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#279
post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A comment that broadly accuses the HN community of jealousy, and questions the motives of everyone commenting, is the most intelligent comment you've seen about this? Huh. > ...an ordinary issue... Nice. I think this is a good illustration of part of what's wrong here. To the woman whose life has been upended by this, this is not "an ordinary issue". Similarly, everyone that's said so far that this has not been handl…

By ordinary issue I meant one not involving a YC company. E.g. software patents.

[deleted]

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#280
post #205

Here is something I don't understand. San Francisco is a tiny city (heck, I've walked from one end to the other; it's just 7 miles x 7 miles, or 11km x 11km for the rest of you). Most of the principles in this sad tale live in San Francisco. HOW HARD IS IT TO JUST WALK OVER AND MEET THIS PERSON?? Instead of relying on PR and telephones and email and blogs; just walk over, give her a hug, talk to her and treat her rig…

Nobody lives or works in San Franciso. Silicon Valley is not SF. The Bay Area is this big sprawling suburb that is a pain in the ass to get around in.

Are you kidding me, or just trolling? I live in San Francisco. There are tons of people who live _and_ work in San Francisco.

From AirBnB's page: "Airbnb HQ is located in the heart of San Francisco, CA."

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