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Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

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Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#271

Post by rwmj »

alkonaut wrote: post #157
throwaway4good wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He has similar platform to what you will find in many other european countries. Le Pen in France. AFD in Germany. Dansk folkeparti in Denmark. How does EU "fight" that? By playing for the long run: freedom of movement, cultural exchange, freedom of business. In the long term this leads to a more liberal society, regardless of counter movements.

If there ever comes a time when AfD creates a board to “review” Supreme Court justices, or moves to remove “foreign influence” on media in Germany and so on - then the same discussion will return there. The difference is that conservative nationalism can’t get that type of foothold in Western Europe and the mistake was to include countries in the EU that even had a risk of having a nationalist majority. We should hav…

> The difference is that conservative nationalism can’t get that type of foothold in Western Europe

UK says hi!

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#272

Post by dreen »

poisonborz wrote: post #28

If there is one single lasting international effect of Orbán and his party, it's how he demonstrated how EU is completely helpless against rouge states (as well). The delicate political balance of its parliamental politics make it impossible to react to any complex, even if lethal threats. The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime in its own heartland for a decade now, and all they can do are angry notices an…

> Hungary has the full support of Poland and the V4

this is not going to last forever, its already diminished a lot since 2015

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#273

Post by dalbasal »

biscotte_ wrote: post #163
ethbr0 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both India and the US also had their bloody moments to make it happen, in the Partition (and then Bangladesh Liberation War) and Civil War respectively.

True, but there have been many attempts to create Europe in the past, the 3rd Reich being one of them, Napoleon, and others before. Europhiles dont like that reminder but people at the time used the same rethoric of “building the great Europe”, “nations are too old etc”, I can give you references of actual political figures of the 30s and 40s who had that speech and led their country to collaboration with the nazis i…

Agreed, but it's not like europe was all nation-centric politics before. Europe was divided into provinces within empires. Ottoman, Russian, Austro Hungarian... most of Europe was part of a multinational empire, most of the time.

The idea that nation states are old, and multinationalism is new is fallacious. It's only post WWII that borders, political control, and ethnic homogeneity are strongly national... Yugoslavia being the most recent example.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#274

Post by joelbluminator »

rjsw wrote: post #253
joelbluminator wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no expert on the history of Iran, but no, it doesn't seem it ever was (Most countries in the region ever were or are one now). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Imperial_S... "The reign of Reza Shah was totalitarian and dictatorial at a time when totalitarian governments and dictatorships were common in the Middle East and the world[8] and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was some years i…

It was more of a democracy before the 1953 coup [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...

OK, it was more of a democracy at that time I agree. That was 70 years ago.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#275

Post by joelbluminator »

pessimizer wrote: post #258
joelbluminator wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not fishing for hypocrisy, that's quite a strong word. But there is some bias I'm sensing here. You would probably never say "Obama's legacy is arming dictators" though it's part of his legacy for sure. Merkel's as well. > And a tradition of freedom and democracy The U.S was a de facto apartheid state until the 60s. The UK castrated gays up until quite recently. Liberal democracy as we know it today is quite new.…

US and UK policy isn't at all confused about that - Israel couldn't operate the way it does without our support and direct subsidy. Both countries also use Israeli crowd control and intelligence tech on their domestic populations, just like all of those Sunni royal families attacking their Shia populations. It's only the West Wing fans that are confused about how their country works.

Thanks for the support btw :)

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#276

Post by ashtonkem »

joelbluminator wrote: post #197
andrepd wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So it's easy to see Israel's interest in supplying technology to those regimes and assuring good relations; It's easy to see that it's in my interest to kill a woman on an unlit street and nick her purse. What kind of argument is this?? It's especially aggravating since so much propaganda comes out touting Israel as a democracy and decrying the savage Palestinians for being a dictatorship.

It's probably not in your interest since you'd go to jail and the whole metaphor seems quite simplistic to me. Since you seem to be talking about ethics, not interests, If Israel supports Egypt's El-Sisi is that immoral? Yes he is a despot, but the opposition is worse. Same can be said about Israel's support to the Palestinian Authority. It's quite difficult to know what the right thing to do is. Israel wants good re…

> Yes he is a despot, but the opposition is worse.

This is the exact mental process that has brought most dictators into power.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#277

Post by hutzlibu »

alkonaut wrote: post #157
throwaway4good wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He has similar platform to what you will find in many other european countries. Le Pen in France. AFD in Germany. Dansk folkeparti in Denmark. How does EU "fight" that? By playing for the long run: freedom of movement, cultural exchange, freedom of business. In the long term this leads to a more liberal society, regardless of counter movements.

If there ever comes a time when AfD creates a board to “review” Supreme Court justices, or moves to remove “foreign influence” on media in Germany and so on - then the same discussion will return there. The difference is that conservative nationalism can’t get that type of foothold in Western Europe and the mistake was to include countries in the EU that even had a risk of having a nationalist majority. We should hav…

" The difference is that conservative nationalism can’t get that type of foothold in Western Europe and the mistake was to include countries in the EU that even had a risk of having a nationalist majority"

Does spain is included in your non-nationalistic western europe? A state where old fascist are still in charge in justice, police and army? Who cheeringly cracked down on catalonia who dared to organize a referendum on independence?

Or, well france. Who declared as a first move of presidency of EU to make french the standard working language of the EU?

Nationalism isn't restricted to eastern europe.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#278

Post by tarere »

NicoJuicy wrote: post #2

Orbán is a cancer on Europe, i really the EU has a decent response this time.

> "Orbán is a cancer on Europe"

Orbán too little "woke" ? One would say "EU is a cancer for european nations and people", I strongly think that this techno-totalitarist institution is on the brink of total collapse. Brexit first, Hungary, Poland, I sure hope France is next with our "startup nation" CEO.

French people voted NO to EU in 2005, it was forced upon us. You may argue as much as you want EU and its supra-national institutions are not a democratic process.

If EU was good for Europe, US would not have set it up back in the days. Everything is about power. Before it was power of nations, now it is obviously power from a selected few over the mass, supra-national oligarchy.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#279

Post by bluthund »

egeozcan wrote: post #270
bluthund wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's precisely a studying and understanding of history which makes me so. Perhaps people like you would do better to engage in conversation where you might learn something you don't know rather than throw out your classic epithets

So, to be clear, you studied and "understood" history and came to the conclusion that nationalism is a good thing. How? It's clear that I don't agree with you. I think you must be too isolated from some nice people to be so furious about other people.

We can circle back to the psycho analysis later if you so desire, but I'll be sticking to the topic at hand for the time being.

You seem to have made a connection between nationalism and being furious about other people. I respectfully disagree that there is a necessary relationship there.

I have no ill will against other people. I would like people who share my culture to govern me, and I would not like people of my culture governing people of a different culture. They can govern themselves and we can govern ourselves. We can share ideas, trade, sport, etc., But multiculturalism within borders is an inevitable failure and globalism is an inevitable failure

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#280

Post by ignoramous »

giorgioz wrote: post #255

Found this article/podcast about how to protect itself a bit more more Pegasus: https://threatpost.com/protecting-phones-from-pegasus-like-s... Isn't Android and iOS supposed to investigate what's the security vulnerability that allows the remote hacking through SMS and patch it?

That's a PR piece by an upstart that sells MDM (mobile device management) suite to enterprises. There are many entrenched MDMs that can very well do as much, if not more.
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