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Apology

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Re: Apology

#271

Post by jolux »

WalterBright wrote: post #263
jolux wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s true, but something should also be done to correct the behavior of the offender, which is what I think most of this thread is talking about.

At least one poster in this thread has attempted to bully me. He failed - and not because anyone tried to correct his behavior. It's because his insults do not affect me.

There are multiple ways to stop people from being bullied and harassed. We shouldn’t leave it on everyone to defend themselves, but set baseline standards of acceptable behavior. This is uncontroversial as far as government in general is concerned. For whatever reason, people seem to get upset about it when organizations try to enforce standards that are more stringent than the law.

Re: Apology

#272

Post by boredtofears »

vanderZwan wrote: post #255
boredtofears wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> first steps of the self realization process Every time I see a well written apology letter, I cringe at all the self-actualization rhetoric people respond to it with. As if they must do more and become some kind of Buddhist monk before true retribution is to be awarded to them.

The apology is in response to being called out on one example in decades of behavior so toxic that a significant number of people have left academia, an otherwise amazing open source project and who knows what else, as a result of it. This has been confirmed by many people at this point. An apology in that context is a starting point, a request to open a door that has been shut by the abuser themselves. An apology do…

Okay. So what is the “path” you’d prescribe this individual? That’s the part that never seems to get defined and seems to be something the accused must infinitely chase.

At what point should spectators be allowed to treat this individual like a human again?

Re: Apology

#273

Post by lmm »

fatbird wrote: post #241
lmm wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We're not short of brilliant people who are also nice or at least not generally toxic. We absolutely are, especially with the all-encompassing definitions of toxicity that are popular lately.

Is there a shortage of people with CompSci PhDs to staff universities and do research? Is there a shortage of people to present at conferences? Just because you feel like cancel culture is cancelling people who don't deserve it, doesn't mean we need those people to fill open positions. Every time we make excuses for people like Matthias, we're filling a chair that could have someone else who's not toxic in it. Not to…

> Is there a shortage of people with CompSci PhDs to staff universities and do research? Is there a shortage of people to present at conferences?

There's a shortage of people doing top-quality work that advances the state of the art.

> Just because you feel like cancel culture is cancelling people who don't deserve it, doesn't mean we need those people to fill open positions. Every time we make excuses for people like Matthias, we're filling a chair that could have someone else who's not toxic in it.

> Not to mention: if we have a shortage of brilliant people, why aren't you asking how many brilliant people are driven out of the community by people like Matthias? What's the opportunity cost in brilliant people that Matthias represents?

I absolutely do ask that. But the disproportionate number of brilliant people we see being cancelled lately makes me think that "toxicity" is practically a requirement for brilliance.

Re: Apology

#274

Post by KronisLV »

thinknboutstuff wrote: post #180
underwater wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone doesn't immediately become a brilliant asshole. Both skillsets take time to evolve and solidify. If we stop making excuses for people – "that's just they way they are, you know coders, they just don't have social skills, he's an asshole but the company would be in trouble without him" – then may be these people would get the feedback that they need before it becomes a problem of this magnitude.

Seriously, if you're that brilliant you can develop some basic social skills. And from what I'm getting from this thread, we are talking fundamental thinking before you engage in a social interaction skills. It's ok not to be great at everything, but it's not acceptable to be toxic on the basis of your other skills. At the very least, sometimes that means the genius team member needs to just shut up and choose their…

> Seriously, if you're that brilliant you can develop some basic social skills.

I'm not entirely sure that this is always possible, since some of those people could possibly be on the autism spectrum, have Asperger's or perhaps other pathologies, that would impede their emotional intelligence. Obviously that's not always the case, but the assumption that it's always possible doesn't seem to be true.

> It's ok not to be great at everything, but it's not acceptable to be toxic on the basis of your other skills.

With this, however, i fully agree. I do find myself wishing that there was some socially acceptable way to call people out when their behaviour is not appropriate, without antagonizing them. For example, it would have probably been better to inform RMS in that way, rather than resorting to mob justice and "cancelling" him.

Re: Apology

#275

Post by toomanybeersies »

KronisLV wrote: post #274
thinknboutstuff wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously, if you're that brilliant you can develop some basic social skills. And from what I'm getting from this thread, we are talking fundamental thinking before you engage in a social interaction skills. It's ok not to be great at everything, but it's not acceptable to be toxic on the basis of your other skills. At the very least, sometimes that means the genius team member needs to just shut up and choose their…

> Seriously, if you're that brilliant you can develop some basic social skills. I'm not entirely sure that this is always possible, since some of those people could possibly be on the autism spectrum, have Asperger's or perhaps other pathologies, that would impede their emotional intelligence. Obviously that's not always the case, but the assumption that it's always possible doesn't seem to be true. > It's ok not to…

Autistic people are capable of following basic social protocol by not insulting or yelling at others. Anyone who says otherwise is just using their autism as an excuse for their toxic behaviour.

Re: Apology

#276

Post by blagie »

r-w wrote: post #268
blagie wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know a lot of people like that. I'm from a culture which is perceived as abrasive, harsh, critical, and aggressive in the US. That goes up, down, and sideways. We're often perceived as bullies until we learn to code-switch. African Americans get a pass here, since most people are familiar enough with African American culture and mannerisms to know how (or at least that) people use language differently, body languag…

Why don't we just not yell at each other?

Because it's oppressive and stifling to be forced to culturally code-switch 100% of the time.

You try answering honestly anytime someone asks "How are you?" for a few weeks ("Not so well; I was fighting diarrhea last night, and got no sleep."). Or try following Middle Eastern norms on gender relations. Or raising your child Korean-style with after-school academic programs where your child spends more time in academics than Americans do awake.

Or if you want a simpler exercise, try mirroring Indian body language: nod sideways for yes. So how much cognitive load there is to a simple nonverbal communication change like that.

I'd advise trying to adopt African American communication mannerisms, but you'd be steamrolled for cultural appropriation (which is a very American concept).

As a footnote: Yelling is a normal, natural way to express excitement, anger, urgency, and a whole slew of other things. It's like forcing a dog to never bark. I understand how central not yelling is to some cultures (white/Western, Japanese, and a few others), but I don't think it's healthy or natural.

Re: Apology

#278

Post by gukoff »

I see that many see the apology as innocent and sincere.

To me, this apology screams narcissism and abuse. The author cares only about his public image and tailors the article accordingly. He knows what he's doing there. And I really, really don't envy those who work for him.

I wish I could think otherwise. But once you deal with a narcissist and see them abuse people, you know it.

Re: Apology

#279

Post by fatbird »

lmm wrote: post #273
fatbird wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a shortage of people with CompSci PhDs to staff universities and do research? Is there a shortage of people to present at conferences? Just because you feel like cancel culture is cancelling people who don't deserve it, doesn't mean we need those people to fill open positions. Every time we make excuses for people like Matthias, we're filling a chair that could have someone else who's not toxic in it. Not to…

> Is there a shortage of people with CompSci PhDs to staff universities and do research? Is there a shortage of people to present at conferences? There's a shortage of people doing top-quality work that advances the state of the art. > Just because you feel like cancel culture is cancelling people who don't deserve it, doesn't mean we need those people to fill open positions. Every time we make excuses for people lik…

> There's a shortage of people doing top-quality work that advances the state of the art.

Ok. What do you have to back this up?

From my perspective, a PhD is defined by making a new contribution to the field, and we're graduating lots of PhDs. Part of Butterick's ire is directed at the many other prominent members of the Racket community who have passively enabled Matthias by ignoring his bad behaviour. If Matthias was hit by a bus, would Racket cease ongoing development? Of course not, there are many very smart people driving it forward in interesting ways. I would assert that Matthias isn't even necessary, now to the continuing advancement of the state of art with respect to Racket.

Re: Apology

#280

Post by goto11 »

blagie wrote: post #276
r-w wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why don't we just not yell at each other?

Because it's oppressive and stifling to be forced to culturally code-switch 100% of the time. You try answering honestly anytime someone asks "How are you?" for a few weeks ("Not so well; I was fighting diarrhea last night, and got no sleep."). Or try following Middle Eastern norms on gender relations. Or raising your child Korean-style with after-school academic programs where your child spends more time in academic…

In those cultures, would you also call your boss at 3 in the morning and yell at them?
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