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We are publishing the tax secrets of the .001%

propublica.org

271–280 of 580 posts

Re: We are publishing the tax secrets of the .001%

#271

Every time someone tries to make a tax targeting the ultra rich, it ends up hurting the moderately wealthy instead. Every. Single. Time. The worse tax situation is always the person who makes 500k in a good year, or sells a house they held for 25 years which went up a bunch in value. I suspect this is a significant factor in social mobility. Our tax system is punitive to people who try to leave the working class.

I don't think you're describing an obstacle to change, you're describing the mechanism of change avoidance. Compare: "Gosh, every time we try to tax the wolves, it ends up hurting the sheep as well. Why can't our 100% wolf, 0% sheep Congress get this right? I guess it's just a hard problem!" The solution is not to give up, the solution is to actually tax the rich more. Also, your examples are awful: paying taxes on t…

The problem isn't that it hurts the sheep as well, it's that it hurts the sheep almost entirely. Raising capital gains would be a decent idea that forces the rich to pay more. Basically zero support for it. Closing loopholes helps too, not what we're seeing in tax policy discussions which focus on rates instead.

Raising the top rate on income when most of the ultra-rich's money comes from investment isn't making sense. There is also little interest in creating ultra-high tax brackets. I agree in principle with someone earning $5 million/year paying a higher percentage than someone earning $1 million/year. Many countries the top rate starts at $120,000ish in local currency.

Taxes on the sale of a primary home is not as rare as you think. It may be a twice in a lifetime event for many people but if it costs you a fortune each time people are discouraged from buying starter homes and then upgrading as their family grows. Make this too expensive and people even choose to have fewer children rather than get a bigger house. People may also choose to avoid the real estate market early to wait for a realistic home and risk getting priced out entirely. Admittedly, capital gains taxes are less punitive than land transfer taxes in this regard but it's still a factor. A capped to $500K of capital gains on a primary residence of tax avoidance is useful for middle and upper middle class Americans. It's not a measure designed predominantly for the rich unless your definition of rich is so broad that it includes any property owner. We've seen what happens when you create markets where people can't move and it looks a lot like San Francisco. That's not something I'd want policies to try and replicate.

Re: We are publishing the tax secrets of the .001%

#272
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can: https://www.schwab.com/pledged-asset-line https://www.wealthfront.com/portfolio-line-of-credit And HELOCs are essentially the same for people who own a house but not stocks.

Got it, but why don't brokers more aggressively push this program onto clients? It seems like a win-win. The debtor avoids the elevated short-term capital gains tax. The bank gets interest payments on a loan that has an almost 0 default rate due to the loan being fully collateralized.

[deleted]

Re: We are publishing the tax secrets of the .001%

#273
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only 55% of Americans own stock: https://news.gallup.com/poll/266807/percentage-americans-own...

most of those will be in retirement plans which I assume aren't taxed?

If you are in the US you should brush up on your personal finances.

Re: We are publishing the tax secrets of the .001%

#274

Every time someone tries to make a tax targeting the ultra rich, it ends up hurting the moderately wealthy instead. Every. Single. Time. The worse tax situation is always the person who makes 500k in a good year, or sells a house they held for 25 years which went up a bunch in value. I suspect this is a significant factor in social mobility. Our tax system is punitive to people who try to leave the working class.

And it will never change!

Taking things requires force. Force only works against the powerless. That’s tautological.

And also tautologically, if you’re benefitting from the use of force, it’s because you are powerful, and you are exploiting the powerless. I don’t care how poor or oppressed you think you are.

Re: We are publishing the tax secrets of the .001%

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Look at the countless issues raised by people being unable to exercise stock options for tax reasons. It’s clear that taxing stock is NOT unprecedented. It is unprecedented to tax someone on the value of their unsold stock. That's what a wealth tax would be: We force someone to pay taxes on something (their holdings / net worth) simply because it is valuable, but not necessarily because it was liquidated into cash…

When Jeff Bezos buys a yacht, he doesn't buy it with Amazon stock. He cashes out that stock and then buys the yacht. I think a fair approach would be to use their total net worth as the threshhold for which wealth taxes apply, but taxes are only paid when that stock is turned into actual money, or equivalent. If you're not cashing out your company holdings, if your wealth is only "on paper", then you owe nothing. But…

But the article lays out wealth as a baseline, stating that taxes paid are a small percentage of the wealth increases. Wealth is mostly unliquidated because it is stock.

If I'm understanding the argument correctly, the proposition is that we should ( morally, not legally ) have levied additional taxes on these folks because their net worth has gone up as calculated by the value of things they own, like stock. I find that surprising and somewhat unintuitive. Thanks for clarifying.

Re: We are publishing the tax secrets of the .001%

#276
post #225

I'm not sure I agree with taxing the "wealth", instead of income. Sure, on paper, Buffett's wealth went up by $23B; but these are just imaginary numbers based on the whims of the market. The tax should be on what amount of money actually flowed into his bank account.

The problem is that there is no way to track what flows into his bank account. Evidence says that he can avoid being taxed on any dollars flowing to his bank account. This wasn't a huge problem a century ago due to the Estate tax ensuring that estates would shrink over time and eventually be taxed. In stark contrast to European laws that required estates to be maintained in their entirety to preserve the aristocracy.…

Off topic, just for your information: gentile in English is not the same word as in, for example, French.

The English word means not-Jewish whereas I think you probably meant gentle which has an archaic meaning of noble. See https://www.lexico.com/definition/gentle

Re: We are publishing the tax secrets of the .001%

#277

Every time someone tries to make a tax targeting the ultra rich, it ends up hurting the moderately wealthy instead. Every. Single. Time. The worse tax situation is always the person who makes 500k in a good year, or sells a house they held for 25 years which went up a bunch in value. I suspect this is a significant factor in social mobility. Our tax system is punitive to people who try to leave the working class.

Every single time someone tries to make a tax targeting the ultra rich, someone writes a comment just like this. Every. Single. Time.

As far as I can tell, this comment is semantically identical to:

"Every time someone tries a new cancer therapy, it ends up not helping the worst cancers."

"The sting operation was a failure because it only caught low- and mid-level criminals."

"We shouldn't use automated tests because some bugs cannot be caught by it."

"Look, this bully is ten times stronger than my kid. He's gonna beat him up whether my kid wants him too or not. We should just accept that the kid is gonna get pummelled."

There are at least four flaws I can see:

1. The obvious "perfect is the enemy of the good" argument. Unless you have an alternative proposed tax that is flawless, then the comment does not get closer to a world where people pay a share of taxes commensurate with their point on the wealth continuum.

2. By framing it as "hurting" the moderately wealthy, it applies a narrative that taxes exist to punish, that the extremely wealthy deserve that morally, and that the moderately wealthy do not. Every piece of that narrative is wrong. Taxes exist to fund services, not enforce moral orders. It's not like we have a higher tax rate for convicted criminals. The moderately wealthy also have a capacity to afford taxes higher taxes without lowering their quality of life, so a tax law that hits them too has not "failed". Even if taxes were punishment, this comment presents no actual evidence that the moderately wealthy are morally purer than the ultra-wealthy.

3. Some fraction of today's moderately wealthy are tomorrow's obscenely wealthy, so applying some tax pressure on them today is a step towards preventing them from escaping that tax burden tomorrow.

4. Equating people who make 500k in a year with "the working class" is... I don't even know what to say about it.

5. Forcing the ultra-rich to do extra work to dodge this new law is a net good. Defeatism, which seems to be the counter-proposal here, makes it even easier for them to retain and acquire wealth. We should keep passing laws. Every time they find a loophole, close it. Vote out politicians that get bought. Make them keep jumping. Wear the fuckers out because eventually some will lose if you keep trying. If you let them win... well you let them win.

Re: We are publishing the tax secrets of the .001%

#278

Every time someone tries to make a tax targeting the ultra rich, it ends up hurting the moderately wealthy instead. Every. Single. Time. The worse tax situation is always the person who makes 500k in a good year, or sells a house they held for 25 years which went up a bunch in value. I suspect this is a significant factor in social mobility. Our tax system is punitive to people who try to leave the working class.

You are right, but if they crafted the right bill, I think we could tax the ultra rich, without affecting the asset rich widow, or the moderately wealthy.

Give everyone one big tax day on a house. The family that bought a ranch style house years ago is allowed 1 huge tax holiday. That married $500k deduction is a joke, and needs to be increased.

So, the widow living in the ranch style house should be exempt from taxes, say up to 3M, if she decides to move. With that money, she could move anywhere, and not worry about property taxes too? I know you guys don't like prop 13. (Only about 4-5 counties in CA that will accept a recriprovial property tax transfer. Keep that in mind if older, and looking to move.)

Let's face it, most Americans will only see one big pay day over an asset, and it's usually the family home.

My point is only allow the tax holiday 1 time, and it would be for individuals whom make less than $500k/yr. Don't allow the tax dodge to go on forever, and abused by every ultra rich guy forever.

Let Elisabeth Warren right the bill, and I would bet the lucky middle class 1 home asset person would not be affected by a wealth tax? Warren is wealthy. She is not ultrarich. She knows the difference.

Re: We are publishing the tax secrets of the .001%

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. But how? I think that, if you could somehow collect all the wealth and redistribute it equally, within a few years we would see disparity reappear. Some folks are better at accumulating wealth than others. It seems to me that you would have to keep reallocating wealth. And many would then ask, what's the motive for generating wealth if it's just going to be taken away from you?

> And many would then ask, what's the motive for generating wealth if it's just going to be taken away from you? The same motivation that drives some folks to study e.g. philosophy, even though it's perfectly well known that this will never make you rich: Because they like it. You don't just e.g. found a company for the sake of money - you also do it because it allows you to do things on your own terms, it gives you…

I find it absolutely fascinating that your arguments are shot down on this board, because it's business, but that is literally what you're told on a constant basis if you want to go into the education field in the US.

You don't do it for the paycheck, you do it because you like it. Why education, social work, and other human services fields, but not business? That is odd to me.

Re: We are publishing the tax secrets of the .001%

#280
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but it’s likely that a state actor had this information too. Any credible attempt at deception would use as much corroboratable data as possible.

I find it unlikely that even a state actor would have access to literally all the same private data that ProPublica has acquired over the years, and that they'd know what data ProPublica has and what can be safely manipulated.

This is a straw man. There is no reason they would need ‘literally all’ of Propublica’s data. We don’t know how many data points were verified, but it need not be many.
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