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Starting a crypto project

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Re: Starting a crypto project

#271

Post by smaryjerry »

chrisco255 wrote: post #166
emmap21 wrote: post #29

From user experience, I personally don't see a strong benefit of crypto. It always looks like a Ponzi Scheme to me. When early users are people driven by greed than productivity, it is a HUGE problem.

I do. I can take out a 6 figure loan in 15 seconds and send it to anywhere in the world ( https://aave.com/ ). I can deploy capital, I can participate in liquidity pooling on decentralized exchanges in a completely permissionless manner ( https://uniswap.org/ ) (impossible unless you're a Wall Street insider in the current system), I can lend out currency at higher market rates to day traders participating in leverag…

The defi thing really gets me confused as someone who works with loans and finance. What I have seen in defi is basically a borrower provides 100% collateral for the privilege of paying interest on it. That’s something no business would ever touch in the real world, unless they thought their “investment” in the collateral would exceed their interest rate. That works for borrowers as long as token prices keep going up, but not if they go down. That is why anyone would put up 100% collateral for a loan of the same amount.. but the thing is people do this even in stable coin which confuses me even further. Am I missing something important?

Re: Starting a crypto project

#272

Post by atweiden »

swensel wrote: post #249
arcticbull wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not that, there's not a single blockchain based solution that achieves better results than a classical solution. Not a single one. Never has been. Not in 14 years. I'm open to one showing up! But, well, it hasn't. And that's because there's a huge fundamental cost to trustlessness, decentralization and permissionlessness that substantially no project actually benefits from.

Bitcoin is a worldwide network storing $1 trillion in value without a central party or government. That has never happened before. Are you sure you're just not open to considering the technology at all? Ethereum is another one to look more into. Smart contracts are doing things that no classical solution has ever done. Have you done a deep dive on how the technology of Bitcoin or Ethereum actually work? FWIW, I think…

There’s a difference between the cryptocurrency world’s definition of “innovation”, and solving longstanding problems for humanity.

How does Bitcoin solve inequality?

How does Bitcoin solve world hunger?

How does Bitcoin solve disease?

Bitcoin — and cryptocurrencies more broadly — do none of those things, with only one notable exception. Bitcoin — being a global currency of fixed supply — stands to usher in a global deflationary economic system. Investors in a deflationary environment have little incentive to invest in the future, and consumers have little incentive to spend. These two things could grind the caustic consumerism destroying our planet’s natural ecosystems to a halt. However, there’s room for interpretation even here; many humans would likely not trade off their own survivability for that of the planet’s natural ecosystems.

All of the hullaballoo about “Defi” and Ethereum only amounts to a Wall Street reskin, i.e. better high brow gambling. This does nothing for humanity either. Very innovative (!), lots of money being made, nicely exascerbating inequality of course. But achieves nothing.

(The S&P is actually down since 1970 as measured in gold [1]. Wall St is a carnival, and defi is just that carnival, squared.)

[1]: https://www.longtermtrends.net/stocks-vs-gold-comparison/

Re: Starting a crypto project

#273

Post by arberx »

notJim wrote: post #267
arberx wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very actual real utility here? What's utility to you? Is buying a in-game COD skin utility? Or how about roblox bucks? How about the trillion dollar derivatives market? All those things easily disrupted by DeFi.

I think it's a fair question, but these are not great examples, IMO. COD skins and Roblox bucks can only be produced and sold by one company, so I don't see why you would need a decentralized protocol for them. CS:GO doesn't use DeFi, and apparently the market was active enough to be used almost entirely for money laundering. For other financial markets, I can definitely see more of a case to be made, but it remains…

The difference with COD skins being in-game vs on a blockchain is not only can you associate a universal identity to them (your wallet address), but anyone can see and trade for them anywhere. Maybe not the best example, but if you generalize to artwork/digital content it really makes sense.

Re: Starting a crypto project

#274

Post by wonderwonder »

notJim wrote: post #143
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #2

Can confirm. I’m friends with a group of very smart distributed systems engineers who were excited to launch an actually useful crypto project that gets talked about here from time to time. As much as they’re excited about the technology itself, very few people are actually interested in using it. Instead, their business seems to revolve around the value of the utility tokens for their project. Few people are buying…

> They’re buying them to horde so they can resell to other speculators when the price goes up. It's almost like all interest in cryptocurrency is driven by greed and speculation. I've been learning more about it, and I'm pretty convinced this is the case. Go into any crypto space, and all people are talking about is yield, price action, how much their tokens have grown etc. I think the only thing I've seen that isn't…

To be fair though that's most things. That's the very purpose of the stock market. When you buy a stock most of the time most people don't care what the company it represents does, they just want the stock to go up. Same thing can be applied to most things there are vast warehouses full of art people will never see as its just owned as a tax dodge / speculation. Heck most of us work jobs we hate for nothing but money. Greed / speculation and the need for income make the world go round.

Re: Starting a crypto project

#275

Post by swensel »

space_rock wrote: post #71
lottin wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vitalik Buterin, the guy who thinks you can do quantum computing by running a quantum computer emulator on an ordinary computer [1]. Doesn't strike me as the sharpest tool to be honest... [1] https://twitter.com/VitalikButerin/status/127395790524347596...

He's a marketing genius for being able to sell garbage to fools. I'll give him that

Have you actually looked into the technology behind Ethereum? Do you understand how complex it is? You make it sound like Vitalik just quickly threw something together and had good marketing, however, Ethereum is quite technical and has been since the beginning [1].

[1] https://ethereum.org/en/whitepaper/

Re: Starting a crypto project

#276

Post by ipnon »

notJim wrote: post #143
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #2

Can confirm. I’m friends with a group of very smart distributed systems engineers who were excited to launch an actually useful crypto project that gets talked about here from time to time. As much as they’re excited about the technology itself, very few people are actually interested in using it. Instead, their business seems to revolve around the value of the utility tokens for their project. Few people are buying…

> They’re buying them to horde so they can resell to other speculators when the price goes up. It's almost like all interest in cryptocurrency is driven by greed and speculation. I've been learning more about it, and I'm pretty convinced this is the case. Go into any crypto space, and all people are talking about is yield, price action, how much their tokens have grown etc. I think the only thing I've seen that isn't…

Cryptocurrencies fundamentally are about transactions. So I don't think it's appropriate to claim cryptocurrencies are any more driven by greed and speculation than any other common transactional activities, such as saving money in a bank account, mortgaging a home or buying a cup of coffee.

Re: Starting a crypto project

#277

Post by kenneth »

atweiden wrote: post #272
swensel wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin is a worldwide network storing $1 trillion in value without a central party or government. That has never happened before. Are you sure you're just not open to considering the technology at all? Ethereum is another one to look more into. Smart contracts are doing things that no classical solution has ever done. Have you done a deep dive on how the technology of Bitcoin or Ethereum actually work? FWIW, I think…

There’s a difference between the cryptocurrency world’s definition of “innovation”, and solving longstanding problems for humanity. How does Bitcoin solve inequality? How does Bitcoin solve world hunger? How does Bitcoin solve disease? Bitcoin — and cryptocurrencies more broadly — do none of those things, with only one notable exception. Bitcoin — being a global currency of fixed supply — stands to usher in a global…

Cryptocurrencies by virtue of being digital money accessible anywhere in the world and not manipulatable by central banks can do a ton of good in countries that are experiencing currency mismanagement. It was particularly popular in Argentina, and right now Lebanon is experiencing hyperinflation as well.

Controversial opinion — but I'm of the mind that the world is about to experience massive inflation due to the horrifying Covid response of massively expanding the money supply, so we might be able to see even more of a need worldwide.

Re: Starting a crypto project

#278

Post by jude- »

arberx wrote: post #253
jude- wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My code must conform to whatever programmatic interfaces that the exchange provides, even if they are not a good fit for the token's intended purpose. So yes, there is integration legwork that I the developer have to do. > Using the network is not "skimming" transactions. Sure it is. Users are paying a different token to miners (not me) to use my app's token. Tell me, if users are given the choice between transacting…

Your argument is: don't use the internet because electric utility providers are profiting off you.

Unlike electric utility companies and ISPs, users don't have a choice in the underlying blockchain.

This is more like Microsoft forcing people to pay for Windows when they buy a PC, even if they will install Linux.

Re: Starting a crypto project

#279

Post by space_rock »

swensel wrote: post #275
space_rock wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's a marketing genius for being able to sell garbage to fools. I'll give him that

Have you actually looked into the technology behind Ethereum? Do you understand how complex it is? You make it sound like Vitalik just quickly threw something together and had good marketing, however, Ethereum is quite technical and has been since the beginning [1]. [1] https://ethereum.org/en/whitepaper/

Been presenting on and teaching the technology for 7 years

Re: Starting a crypto project

#280

Post by vmception »

smaryjerry wrote: post #271
chrisco255 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do. I can take out a 6 figure loan in 15 seconds and send it to anywhere in the world ( https://aave.com/ ). I can deploy capital, I can participate in liquidity pooling on decentralized exchanges in a completely permissionless manner ( https://uniswap.org/ ) (impossible unless you're a Wall Street insider in the current system), I can lend out currency at higher market rates to day traders participating in leverag…

The defi thing really gets me confused as someone who works with loans and finance. What I have seen in defi is basically a borrower provides 100% collateral for the privilege of paying interest on it. That’s something no business would ever touch in the real world, unless they thought their “investment” in the collateral would exceed their interest rate. That works for borrowers as long as token prices keep going up…

Mmm yeah you’re missing a lot.

These are just collateralized loans that are automated. Nobody here would touch your businesses “in the real world” because it would take like 90 days to get any liquidity with those processes, compared to 15 seconds (1 block). There is nothing mysterious about a collateralized loan with a conservative loan to value ratio. The first thing you got wrong is that most services have a low LTV not 100%. Usually between 25-55%. Businesses in the real world do touch that.

The other thing you’re missing is who what and why. These aren't businesses these are basically self-replicating robot toll booths who are doing what lending businesses also try to do: pool liquidity and in some cases reinvest that greater liquidity.

When borrowers deposit collateral they are typically passing through a smart contract that then adds their deposit to a liquidity pool that the market can access. It requires confidence in these smart contracts that the collateral will remain available but that confidence is generally there. The market typically taps these liquidity pools for easier trading with lower spreads at larger amounts or for the repo market (flash loans). Lenders are repaid usually in the asset they lent, as well as a project’s token which amplifies yield. The risk isnt contigent on the projects token existing or going up, which I think you missed. For some platforms that is true but that is usually yield farming, but if you think a market need is unfulfilled just launch another version.

Typically earning or otherwise having enough of the project’s token allows people to vote on controlling some parameters, such as the interest rates provided or augmented by how much of the project token or the use of which liquidity pools or eligible assets in the system.

Back to the borrowers and lenders, yeah they can get and give personal loans for discretionary spending at market provided interest rates even in stablecoins.

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