Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices • Hacker News Board

Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#271

Post by disgruntledphd2 » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 8:42 AM UTC

timavr wrote: post #232

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"loans can be discharged in bankruptcy." To me the idea that in a 'free country' today you cannot clear your debts through bancrupcy sounds crazy, it's a practice that belongs in history books along with debtor prisons, bondage, endentured servitude, feudalism, having public holiday 'execution day' and slavery. In the UK we used execute people for vagrancy.

For starters there are two types of loans in the system, federal(92%) and private(8%). Federal is less of a loan, but more a subsidy that you have to repay at later date if you can. There is no market mechanism involved, government sets the terms and rules. Overall if you have your shit together(push paperwork on time), it is nearly impossible to default on that type of a loan. So for all intense and purposes, those…

In order for modern society to keep working you need those people to get into mortgage debt, as that's (combined with children) the most effective way to keep people employed.

Even from the mustache-twirling evil perspective, it doesn't make a lot of sense to burden people with debt before they have even started to earn money to repay it.

Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#272

Post by ascar » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 8:58 AM UTC

LMYahooTFY wrote: post #223

sandofsky wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This in no way answered my question. I can't believe I have to make this explicit, but ok. > I'm curious if there's a way you can mess up language in a contract that isn't deceptive/misleading? Reading the contract, a student will think that they can't discharge the debt through bankruptcy. In reality, yes, they can discharge the debt through bankruptcy. It's right there in the order: "The Bankruptcy Non-Dischargea…

> Since we can't reach common ground on basic facts, I see no reason to engage with you any further. I'm sorry, do you feel I'm not being generous in my interpretation? I certainly feel you're not, is that not a guideline here? >I can't believe I have to make this explicit, but ok. You don't have to, you misunderstood me. If a contract is flawed, is there a result other than 'misleading'? Do we expect all contracts t…

You are ignoring the evidence presented, ask open questions beside the point and attack him personally. That's not a way to have a discussion and it feels like you're acting on an agenda.

> You don't have to, you misunderstood me. If a contract is flawed, is there a result other than 'misleading'?

Or from further up

> I'm curious if there's a way you can mess up language in a contract that isn't deceptive/misleading?

Of course there is. Especially if you don't conflate misleading and deceptive, because they certainly don't mean the same thing. Not every statement in a contract that might turns out to be against the law was made to deceive one party. And that's so obvious that your question is nothing else but distraction from the situation at hand.

A contract can have clauses made in good will in the interest of both parties that turn out to be against the law. E.g. in my country copyright is absolutely nontransferable, but of course I wanna transfer the usage rights for paid work. If the contract would say my copyright is transferred rather than me transferring usage rights it's certainly wrong and against the law, but it's neither misleading nor deceptive of the intent behind the clause.

Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#273

Post by ChicagoDave » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 9:20 AM UTC

Lambda also actively argues that traditional four-year colleges are outdated and unnecessary.

The worst thing that could ever happen isn’t that college is too expensive. The worst thing would be a company like Lambda convincing people their awful indentured servitude was somehow better.

A broad open learning approach that comes from a liberal education is how young men and a women find their passions, lifelong friendships, and themselves.

Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#274

Post by jononomo » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 12:44 PM UTC

lsiebert wrote: post #182

Wanted to clarify two things, since I saw some confusion. The law changed to make a deceptive statement about what can and can't be discharged in bankruptcy illegal, but it was always false to say that it couldn't be discharged in bankruptcy, even before the law changed. This isn't a new California department, it's the old DBO under a new name as the DFPI, with enhanced powers to regulate financial matters that were…

But they didn't say that the loan couldn't be discharged in bankruptcy -- they said it was a fully qualified educational loan subject to the limitations on being discharged that are contained in the law. It seems like you are relying on people making connections that are not spelled out in the contract.

Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#275

Post by cat199 » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 12:47 PM UTC

timavr wrote: post #232

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"loans can be discharged in bankruptcy." To me the idea that in a 'free country' today you cannot clear your debts through bancrupcy sounds crazy, it's a practice that belongs in history books along with debtor prisons, bondage, endentured servitude, feudalism, having public holiday 'execution day' and slavery. In the UK we used execute people for vagrancy.

For starters there are two types of loans in the system, federal(92%) and private(8%). Federal is less of a loan, but more a subsidy that you have to repay at later date if you can. There is no market mechanism involved, government sets the terms and rules. Overall if you have your shit together(push paperwork on time), it is nearly impossible to default on that type of a loan. So for all intense and purposes, those…

good points.

being 'that guy' and pointing out that it's not:

> intense and purposes

but 'intents and purposes'.

a common eggcorn.

Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#276

Post by ballenf » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 1:10 PM UTC

40four wrote: post #215

It makes me sad that many of the prominent boot-camps now have such a bad reputation, and seem to be run so poorly, or recklessly. I feel lucky to have enrolled at, now defunct, The Iron Yard at it’s peak in the end of 2016. I owe them everything for teaching me and coaching me into how to break into my new career as a web developer. It was life changing. I can only speak for my particular campus, but I imagine it wa…

Similar experience here. The problem I witnessed during my year or so involvement was a race to the bottom in terms of selectiveness of admitting students.

The deception was that the screening test was marketed as informing prospective students whether they had the prerequisite skills to succeed in the school.

I saw so many students struggling for easy to predict reasons: some didn't even have the basic computer equipment to participate. A few more seemed to struggle with just basic concepts.

None of those people were inherently incapable, but they were mislead to believe that they were ready for the program.

The bootcamp I went to was pretty good when I started, but even a year later I was starting to get uneasy about my association with it. I've now completely removed it from LinkedIn and resume. I will mention it if it comes up, but I actively discourage prospective students now and don't want to do anything to lend them legitimacy. It's not worth mentioning its name here because my points apply to almost every bootcamp out there, based on discussions at meetups with prospective bootcamp students.

Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#277

Post by tootahe45 » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 1:52 PM UTC

boldslogan wrote: post #248

Ansil849 wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> padding the hiring statistics by giving jobs to graduates and counting those jobs towards those marketing numbers. I see this brought up quite a bit, and I don't really see the issue. They are offering their graduates jobs, so why should these jobs not count just like any other jobs?

Because the only way that would continue to work is they got more new students (at the bottom) to pay for the old students (at the top) jobs and it (the pyramid) would fall apart. In other words it looks like a pyramid scheme if the grads only get jobs as teachers.

You just described 80% of the tertiary education courses unis offer.

Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#278

Post by MivLives » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 1:53 PM UTC

ballenf wrote: post #276

40four wrote: post #215

It makes me sad that many of the prominent boot-camps now have such a bad reputation, and seem to be run so poorly, or recklessly. I feel lucky to have enrolled at, now defunct, The Iron Yard at it’s peak in the end of 2016. I owe them everything for teaching me and coaching me into how to break into my new career as a web developer. It was life changing. I can only speak for my particular campus, but I imagine it wa…

Similar experience here. The problem I witnessed during my year or so involvement was a race to the bottom in terms of selectiveness of admitting students. The deception was that the screening test was marketed as informing prospective students whether they had the prerequisite skills to succeed in the school. I saw so many students struggling for easy to predict reasons: some didn't even have the basic computer equi…

I had the same experience and I think many of the more successful people from the same program did as well. There's also a bit of a bias, the only people I still talk to from the program were also successful. We haven't seen anyone from it in awhile and have all mostly cut off contact.

With Lambda in particular I've wanted to do the math on the gamble per student. IE it costs x per student to put them through the program, what percentage need to make what to make this enterprise worth it for whoever is buying their ISAs.

Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#279

Post by bdcravens » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 2:07 PM UTC

Ansil849 wrote: post #244

bdcravens wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak to Trilogy specifically, but for many bootcamps, the deception is in the marketing about job and salary prospects, as well as padding the hiring statistics by giving jobs to graduates and counting those jobs towards those marketing numbers.

> padding the hiring statistics by giving jobs to graduates and counting those jobs towards those marketing numbers. I see this brought up quite a bit, and I don't really see the issue. They are offering their graduates jobs, so why should these jobs not count just like any other jobs?

People pay for a bootcamp for a developer job (with a developer salary), not a teacher's aid job (where they are undoubtedly not paying the salaries they also use in their marketing to attract students). Thus they assume that number reflects the career the bootcamp is promising.

Re: Lambda School agrees to end deceptive educational financing practices

#280

Post by gen220 » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 2:11 PM UTC

boldslogan wrote: post #248

Ansil849 wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> padding the hiring statistics by giving jobs to graduates and counting those jobs towards those marketing numbers. I see this brought up quite a bit, and I don't really see the issue. They are offering their graduates jobs, so why should these jobs not count just like any other jobs?

Because the only way that would continue to work is they got more new students (at the bottom) to pay for the old students (at the top) jobs and it (the pyramid) would fall apart. In other words it looks like a pyramid scheme if the grads only get jobs as teachers.

FWIW, many teachers are only at bootcamps for a year or two before moving on to work for normal companies. I didn’t go through a boot camp, but I do work with people who did and were teachers at those boot camps before working here.

From what I understand, teaching is generally seen as a positive signal (if the boot camp is a good one), because it means they know the material well enough to teach it.

I can totally imagine the opposite becoming true (teaching is a negative signal), creating a positive feedback loop in the opposite direction, and turning the boot camp into a pyramid scheme.

I guess it all depends on the credibility of the boot camp, kind of analogous to universities, as a sibling commenter points out.