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Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades

economist.com

271–280 of 424 posts

Re: Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades

#271
post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Leaf was built with Japanese climate in mind, where peak temperatures are usually not as high. I always found that strange, given that automotive components are usually tested for outlier conditions.

A Korean car company made a car with the Japanese climate in mind? Perhaps you meant the Korean climate?

Are you under the mistaken impression that Nissan, maker of the LEAF, is a Korean car company? (They are a Japanese company.)

Re: Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades

#272

It’s remarkable what energy dense batteries have enabled. Drones and the entire quadcopter scene wouldn’t be possible without them. Some maneuvers made on a 5” quad can pull more than 100 amps on a 6S, 22V battery. That is around 2,200 watts—more than most consumer microwave ovens! The fact that a battery weighing no more than half a kilogram can supply this much power almost instantly is truly remarkable.

Neither would my 300 gram plane that can fly for an hour and 60 kilometers. Technology is great.

Do you get live video over cellphone networks at that weight?

Re: Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades

#273
post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately, even a very small amount of noise in the data makes is basically impossible to know where you are in an S-curve. While true, my point is that when combined with the fact that we are pre-inflection point, and the economics now stand on their own (renewables, Electric Vehcile TCO and various Energy Storage applications being already cheapest, competitive or very close too) it is not unreasonable when m…

Build enough PV to generate 24 hours worth of power for the reactor in daylight hours, and store the excess in batteries to power the reactor overnight.

At that point, just use battery storage and bypass the reactor entirely.

Re: Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades

#274
post #132
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

drawing a line on a graph and saying "look how X Y is gonna be in Z years" is the same exact type of stupid And yet we do it every ~18 months with semiconductors. Imperfect to be sure, but if you don’t skate to where the puck is headed, you will miss opportunity.

> And yet we do it every ~18 months with semiconductors. So, this is about to stop. Very soon. Quantum tunneling, yield rates, etc are all starting to be cost prohibitive. Even if hypothetically it does, there's a very real limit - an atom is only 10x smaller than 2nm.

> Even if hypothetically it does, there's a very real limit - an atom is only 10x smaller than 2nm.

That's certainly a real limit, but what is it a limit on? It is not obvious from first principles that it takes n atoms to implement n transistors.

Re: Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither would my 300 gram plane that can fly for an hour and 60 kilometers. Technology is great.

Do you get live video over cellphone networks at that weight?

No, it has an analog transmitter on it that has a range of roughly 5 km. Video over cell isn't very widespread, though it should be.

Re: Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades

#276

It’s remarkable what energy dense batteries have enabled. Drones and the entire quadcopter scene wouldn’t be possible without them. Some maneuvers made on a 5” quad can pull more than 100 amps on a 6S, 22V battery. That is around 2,200 watts—more than most consumer microwave ovens! The fact that a battery weighing no more than half a kilogram can supply this much power almost instantly is truly remarkable.

To be fair, people were doing a LOT with model airplanes ~60 years ago with kerosene engines.

Re: Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades

#277
post #71

This is important to keep in mind when you read articles and/or studies about how electric cars or wind or solar power is impractical. A lot of the data these studies use is just obsolete. Say you have an opinion piece in a news paper that says that electric cars will always be expensive toys for the rich. It relies on a scientific paper published in a technical journal 2 years ago. The scientific paper does not perf…

> while a car lasts only 10-15 years While it might be the case that today’s EVs will not be economically longer-lived than 15 years, the overall average age of a car in the US is 12 years, and most of my cars have been bought with 10 or more years on them as it makes for very inexpensive motoring (no need for collision or comprehensive insurance, no financing interest, and nearly no depreciation). I bought my 2015 L…

> "I bought my 2015 LEAF new and suspect it will not be economically viable in 2030"

Why not? There are already companies who specialize in replacing early-model LEAF batteries with new, higher-capacity ones. By 2030, I imagine this could be a pretty widespread industry - perhaps even rebuilding/remanufacturing OEM battery packs with new cells.

And so long as the battery still works, that LEAF will always be "economically viable" because unlike combustion vehicles, there are practically no ongoing maintenance costs.

Re: Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades

#278
post #72
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is that? Is it because North Americans use electricity for cooking and heating whereas other countries use gas for that?

Air conditioning isn't needed in many EU countries except for a few days a year (so it's not worth to even install it in private homes, modern offices mostly have them though for some reason). Also depending on the country few people use cloth driers - you just hang your clothes on a cable and let them dry by themselves. Houses in colder parts of EU are also usually better isolated than in US ([1] that's a typical Po…

Office buildings use them because the heating/cooling part is secondary.

They need it for ventilation because 6th floor office windows don't open for obvious reasons.

Re: Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades

#279
post #247
post #71

This is important to keep in mind when you read articles and/or studies about how electric cars or wind or solar power is impractical. A lot of the data these studies use is just obsolete. Say you have an opinion piece in a news paper that says that electric cars will always be expensive toys for the rich. It relies on a scientific paper published in a technical journal 2 years ago. The scientific paper does not perf…

This same problem has plagued climate science as well, giving munition for deniers and otherwise just confusing the public. You want to see the real writing on the wall? The IPCC report takes 10 year old settled science and makes models using it. The real, more recent data is much, much worse.

> The real, more recent data is much, much worse.

Where can I read anything on this?

Re: Lithium battery costs have fallen by 98% in three decades

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are exactly the same kind of error in that both assume stability over time. One assume prices are stable; the other assumes the rate of change is stable.

The rate of change has been stable over the last 15 years, do you bet it continues for a 16th year or that it stops this year?

They'll never be free. They'll never be cheaper than the raw materials that go into them, or the copper to wire them together and into the car.

At some point, there's going to be a price floor that the research, materials supply and competition simply won't break through.

Guessing when that is going to happen is more luck than anything. I do not see it continuing to get exponentially cheaper for long, though.

LiFePho has removed most of the precious metals out of the equation, and the demand for electric cars will continue to compete against the growth in demand for battery storage for renewables. For an analogy, lumber prices have shot through the roof over the past few years where I live due to construction booms. Nothing about the technology has changed, and supply hasn't fluctuated greatly. These same pressures are going to be pushing against lithium batteries getting exponentially cheaper over the next few years. I don't doubt that they will find room to bring prices down, but there is a floor out there somewhere close by.

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