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Cancel We The Web? (2020)

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Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#271

Post by edfletcher_t137 »

Snetry wrote: post #193
edfletcher_t137 wrote: post #47

Let's be honest, RMS needed to fade away long before September 2019. It was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

Did he though

"If the people who came before me--those who taught me the game of avoiding rms--had spoken up, the community could have healed before I even came on the scene. If I and others had stood up fifteen years ago, we'd have another couple generations who were more used to respect, inclusion, welcoming and safety. The FSF board could have done their job back in 2018. And perhaps if more of us had spoken out in 2019, the FSF board would have found the strength to stand strong and not accept rms's return."

https://hartmans.livejournal.com/100652.html

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#272

Post by geenew »

edfletcher_t137 wrote: post #271
Snetry wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did he though

"If the people who came before me--those who taught me the game of avoiding rms--had spoken up, the community could have healed before I even came on the scene. If I and others had stood up fifteen years ago, we'd have another couple generations who were more used to respect, inclusion, welcoming and safety. The FSF board could have done their job back in 2018. And perhaps if more of us had spoken out in 2019, the FS…

Like all other tell-alls that have emerged, there is nothing of substance in that article that would condemn Stallman. The only actual offense is interrupting people on stage.

Hitting on someone by talking about emacs would be funny if it weren't for the insinuation of some sort of sexual assault that was attached to it in the article. Speechifying when talking with someone about codes of conduct is at most boorish.

It may well be a burden to have someone butt into your work and lecture you on ethics, but to conflate social discomfort with a loss of personal safety is self-serving and dishonest.

One uncharitable way to view this saga is that the people who failed to effectively argue with Stallman on his moral points have resorted to slander by misrepresenting disregard for superficial social convention as malice.

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#273

Post by seebs »

b112 wrote: post #261
_euac wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you might not be calling for ostracizing the cancellers, plenty of people out there are calling for exactly that. There's a number of terms being used ('SJW', 'woke', 'cancel culture', 'cultural Marxism', etc.) to denigrate and quell any kind of discourse that goes against conservative talking points. I'd suggest you go and watch any of the self-described 'conservative comedians' to understand the level of othe…

This has somewhat opened my eyes. Looking in at the US from abroad, most people I know locally have been highly upset by US 'cancel culture'. Why? The lack of courts, the fact that people's lives, careers, and works have been ruined with "mob like" mentality, is horrifying. Couple that with what you've just said, that the 'cancel culture' is a 'left' thing in the US, and this becomes more and more clear. As a Canuck,…

Due process for calling someone to resign is deciding that you personally feel they should resign, and saying so.

If you don't see a difference between the things called "cancel culture" and the mob rule with violence, that's not because they're not different. It might be because you're uncritically accepting the lies people tell because they don't like any kind of accountability at all for their actions.

This is why we have US Senators on TV and publishing articles in major newspapers about how they're being silenced because a company decided not to work with them on something. You don't see these posts from the people who actually got silenced, because they were actually silenced. But if you believe someone who is using multiple media channels with international distribution to tell you that they are being silenced without recourse, that's sorta on you. You can do better than that.

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#274

Post by moistbar »

sneak wrote: post #270
moistbar wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firing is absolutely punitive.

A job is an agreement between two parties. Revoking consent to a mutually-agreed-upon interaction is not punitive. Consent today does not imply consent tomorrow.

Revoking that consent in response to something one party disagrees with is the definition of punitive.

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#275

Post by sneak »

moistbar wrote: post #274
sneak wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A job is an agreement between two parties. Revoking consent to a mutually-agreed-upon interaction is not punitive. Consent today does not imply consent tomorrow.

Revoking that consent in response to something one party disagrees with is the definition of punitive.

Not at all. Imagine it in the context of other forms of things people consent (and revoke consent) to.

There's nothing punitive about saying "this doesn't work for me". Sometimes, it's not even about the other party.

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#276

Post by sneak »

moistbar wrote: post #218
sneak wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People need to be accountable for what they say, not what people believe they think. I disagree. What people believe what someone thinks, even if incorrect, is a legitimate basis for someone's choice of free association. It's entirely legitimate for someone to avoid someone else (including fire them) on the basis of false beliefs about that person, due to failing to spend enough time understanding the nuance of the…

So every alleged criminal should be treated as guilty until proven innocent?

Yes, this is entirely permissible by society and people who know them. Violence undertaken by the state to enforce the law is a different matter, where the maxim of the law is "innocent until proven guilty".

The topic of this thread is not law enforcement by the state, however.

There are people I know who have been credibly accused of crimes. No trial occurred. I still treat them as if they were guilty of the crime: I assiduously avoid them.

Such is my right.

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#277

Post by ric2b »

sshumaker wrote: post #221
bill_mon wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Treading carefully is probably our best bet, but it's very difficult and error prone. There are no militant atheists, in any reasonable sense of the word. If mentioning facts about the world is seen as criticism of religious people, that's a big problem. We know vaccines work, because our best research shows that. It's not controversial and we should be free to mention it. Huge parts of many religious text are factua…

Virtually no one is an atheist, if you take the Sapiens definition of religion: “a system of human laws and values, which is founded on a belief in a super human order." (Super human orders are not the product of human whim or human agreements, unlike e.g. the laws of soccer) https://sites.google.com/site/taborsapiens/home/10-the-law-o... If you read the book it’s clear communism, fascism, democracy and capitalism ar…

> If you read the book it’s clear communism, fascism, democracy and capitalism are really religions too. They require belief in a super human order - a set of laws that exist without backing in science or human agreement. E.g. “All men are created equal”

I don't agree with that interpretation, someone who champions democracy just has a set of moral values they want to apply, they don't think the universe is inherently democratic or anything like that.

Likewise for your other examples. They're ideologies, not religions.

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#278

Post by edfletcher_t137 »

geenew wrote: post #272
edfletcher_t137 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If the people who came before me--those who taught me the game of avoiding rms--had spoken up, the community could have healed before I even came on the scene. If I and others had stood up fifteen years ago, we'd have another couple generations who were more used to respect, inclusion, welcoming and safety. The FSF board could have done their job back in 2018. And perhaps if more of us had spoken out in 2019, the FS…

Like all other tell-alls that have emerged, there is nothing of substance in that article that would condemn Stallman. The only actual offense is interrupting people on stage. Hitting on someone by talking about emacs would be funny if it weren't for the insinuation of some sort of sexual assault that was attached to it in the article. Speechifying when talking with someone about codes of conduct is at most boorish.…

"Perhaps you discount the benefits of white male privilege. You’re wrong. Of course I cannot speak from experience, but being female in a misogynistic environment is /exhausting/. Being non-white in a racist society is /exhausting/. You may think the current pre-release crunch is tiring – but it has an end and will stop. The adverse affects of white male privilege never stop."

"Our intent is to be welcoming, but RMS’s toxicity is repellent. We might not desire that toxicity reflect upon us, but it does. Our intent may be good, but intent is not important – impact is, and /harm is being done/. Fix it."

https://gcc.gnu.org/pipermail/gcc/2021-March/235091.html

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#279

Post by edfletcher_t137 »

edfletcher_t137 wrote: post #278
geenew wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like all other tell-alls that have emerged, there is nothing of substance in that article that would condemn Stallman. The only actual offense is interrupting people on stage. Hitting on someone by talking about emacs would be funny if it weren't for the insinuation of some sort of sexual assault that was attached to it in the article. Speechifying when talking with someone about codes of conduct is at most boorish.…

"Perhaps you discount the benefits of white male privilege. You’re wrong. Of course I cannot speak from experience, but being female in a misogynistic environment is /exhausting/. Being non-white in a racist society is /exhausting/. You may think the current pre-release crunch is tiring – but it has an end and will stop. The adverse affects of white male privilege never stop." "Our intent is to be welcoming, but RMS’…

“RMS is no longer a developer of GCC, the most recent commit I can find regards SCO in 2003. Prior to that there were commits in 1997, but significantly less than 1994 and earlier. GCC’s implementation language is now C++, which I believe RMS neither uses nor likes. When was RMS’ most recent positive input to the GCC project? Even if it was recent and significant, that doesn’t mean his toxic behavior should be accepted.“

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#280

Post by etrabroline »

smsm42 wrote: post #267
visarga wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do not get to have opinion about cancel culture and ideology because of my identity That works both ways, you can ignore them back because they are of a different identity (as they insist) and they are biased against your own identity. I have already begun to doubt the papers of woke scientists in the last year. If they are not inclusive they are not worth my time. For example a researcher raising scandal on raci…

Well, as a private matter I am certainly going to ignore their claims that my identity somehow automatically makes my opinions invalid. The sad truth, however, is that they have much more clout currently in many of our society's institutions - like the academia, the education, the press, the administrative state - that people, who, like myself and many other, smarter and more prominent people in the past, thought tha…

I don't think academics like this one somehow convinced wealthy donors to support their work and starve all other work. I think the people who have come into wealth recently are pushing their agenda for political reasons independent of what academics discover.
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