Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution' • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#271

Post by elliekelly » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 5:34 PM UTC

mywacaday wrote: post #224

Poor reporting to not include that Italy, France, Ireland, Bulgaria, Denmark and The Netherlands have all paused the vaccine along with Norway which is mentioned. Expect better of Reuters.

The very first sentence of the article makes it clear that Germany is neither the first nor only European country to suspend AZ vaccinations:

> making it the latest of several European countries to hit pause

The article also cites the EMA, an EU institution, and notes:

> Several EU countries have called a halt to the AstraZeneca vaccine

Would you have them list each and every country individually? It seems, to me, that you're just complaining for the sake of complaining. Expect better of HN comments.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#272

Post by s_dev » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 5:35 PM UTC

leto_ii wrote: post #131

giantandroids wrote: post #8

You do have to wonder if some of this is politically driven. Germany are losing hundreds of life's a day, while in the meantime the UK has administrated 23 million doses (not sure the ratio of those that were AstraZeneca) and not recorded a single fatality or adverse reaction and are seeing infection rates / deaths drop. I can understand caution under normal circumstances, but nothing is normal right now.

While I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your idea, couldn't you make the opposite case as well? Namely that since the AstraZeneca vaccine is mostly British, the government of that country has an interest in hiding/downplaying potentially harmful side-effects? As far as I know by now a bunch of European countries have already suspended vaccination with the AstraZeneca vaccine. These include France, Germany, Italy a…

>These include France, Germany, Italy and the Netherlands - not really a politically homogeneous bunch.

Litterally all members of the same economic and political Union. The EU.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#273

Post by Broken_Hippo » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 5:35 PM UTC

fasteddie31003 wrote: post #189

virgilp wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In EU at least plenty of Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are still incoming, so there are actually alternatives to AZ. Do not forget that these vaccines are still very new, plus there's the possibility of a production issue with the AZ vaccine that affects only part of the production; I wouldn't say it's "politically-motivated" or a dumb idea to pause AZ vaccinations until one does a deeper investigation; I personally ch…

It's the trolly problem. Pull the lever and kill one person. Don't pull the lever and kill 3 people. I'm a lever puller.

Only it isn't that simple.

Pull the lever, and the lever might do things you didn't expect - like derail the last few cars. Don't pull the lever, and people die for sure.

If you derail the last car and don't try to put it back before the next train, you now suddenly have more folks that don't trust the lever and avoid all trains, not just the one you operate.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#274

Post by s_dev » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 5:36 PM UTC

oezi wrote: post #32

giantandroids wrote: post #8

You do have to wonder if some of this is politically driven. Germany are losing hundreds of life's a day, while in the meantime the UK has administrated 23 million doses (not sure the ratio of those that were AstraZeneca) and not recorded a single fatality or adverse reaction and are seeing infection rates / deaths drop. I can understand caution under normal circumstances, but nothing is normal right now.

Ratio is 50/50 Biontech/AstraZeneka.

BioNTech partnered with Pfizer.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#275

Post by libertine » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 5:36 PM UTC

freewilly1040 wrote: post #257

libertine wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the point. This is an anomaly. It's not about the "oh it's worth the risk compared to COVID 19". If it's a side effect it wasn't spotted in the trials, why was that? It's not a side effect? It was a problem in production? What problem? Was is tampered with or was an accident? What failed in QA to let that batch come to the public? Was is a storage problem that compromised the batch quality? Was it whil…

No one is saying side effects should not be investigated. The question is whether the vaccine administration should be halted in the meantime, and that would be determined by the risk/reward of preventing covid deaths.

Just like I trust the regulators for vaccine approval, I trust them in the decision of stopping the administration of a vaccine to further investigate the problem. This goes together.

It's not a political decision no matter how many people try to spin this. This is the outcome of doctors reporting an anomaly to a regulator. The system is working, and this should give you reassurance, not doubt about the consequences of stopping a vaccine.

I'm pretty sure they know the consequences of this setback, so for them to stop it it's because something is not right.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#276

Post by pkaye » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 5:37 PM UTC

idiliv wrote: post #239

patrickmcnamara wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where does it say that AstraZeneca are delivering less because of Italy's interception of vaccines?

It doesn't. > AstraZeneca on Friday said unspecified export restrictions now rendered plans to bring in large amounts of doses made outside Europe unlikely. This suggests that countries outside the EU have imposed export restrictions that contribute to the vaccine shortage.

There is also a Dutch manufacturing plant which is not being utilized for production because AZ didn't get approvals yet.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#277

Post by ArkanExplorer » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 5:37 PM UTC

lm28469 wrote: post #245

ArkanExplorer wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely more people will die from COVID than from blood clotting, due to this delay? Or perhaps not, given that 2020 deaths in Germany were 985,145, only 4.85% higher than 2019, and only 3.2% higher than 2018 (and so basically in line with what we would expect from an aging society). https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Bevoel...

> Or perhaps not, given that 2020 deaths in Germany were 985,145, only 4.85% higher than 2019, and only 3.2% higher than 2018 (and so basically in line with what we would expect from an aging society). Are we still having this debate.... Of course the overall mortality didn't change much, people stayed at home for literally 75% of the year. Do you have the split stats for accidental deaths, road deaths, disease relat…

https://www.statista.com/statistics/525353/sweden-number-of-...

Sweden, 2020 deaths only 6.2% higher than 2018, and following a weak 2019 flu season.

These are entirely acceptable death figures within the context of aging European societies.

COVID is basically a once-a-decade flu variant: like Swine Flu in 2009, which came and went without lockdown: https://swprs.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/sweden-monthly-...

So COVID is dangerous enough to lock down entire societies, but not dangerous enough to justify continued vaccination when 1 in 166,666 have blood clotting? This is probably the background rate.

It seems like Europe and its bureaucrats just can't let go of lockdown. Or alternatively, they wish to push the vaccines and end of lockdown into Spring/Summer, where natural seasonality will take care of COVID and give the appearance that lockdown and vaccines were a success.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#278

Post by jansan » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 5:37 PM UTC

complex1314 wrote: post #63

giantandroids wrote: post #8

You do have to wonder if some of this is politically driven. Germany are losing hundreds of life's a day, while in the meantime the UK has administrated 23 million doses (not sure the ratio of those that were AstraZeneca) and not recorded a single fatality or adverse reaction and are seeing infection rates / deaths drop. I can understand caution under normal circumstances, but nothing is normal right now.

In Norway at least, where we have high compliance and relatively few corona deaths, one important point is to keep public trust in the authorities. The worst case scenario would be loss of trust in the vaccine and loss of trust in the health authorities. Then people would not get vaccinated even if the authorities were recommending it. Also the symptoms are bizarre, the deaths and hospitalizations from blod clot have…

Do I see this correctly that Norway has about 2 COVID-19 deaths per day on average recently? If so the governments is doing the absolutely right thing. Not halting vaccination with AZ would be highly irresponsible.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#279

Post by HenryBemis » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 5:38 PM UTC

qbasic_forever wrote: post #256

raducu wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm set to take the oxford d vaccine, but I could also take the pfizer vaccine. I've had elevated blood markers for clotting during covid-19, and now I hear of this. I'm thinking of taking 75 mg aspirin, before and after the vaccine. On the other hand, the issue is the patients have low platelet count and I understand that this is the way aspirin reduces blod clotting. So, do these patients have low platelet count be…

Talk to your doctor before making decisions. Taking aspirin right before a vaccine might not be a good idea as it can blunt your immune system response, but the whole point of a vaccine is to elicit a strong immune response that builds memory. I know acetaminophen is specifically mentioned as something not to take right before the COVID-19 vaccines (and afterwards, if you can deal with the immune response naturally).

>can blunt your immune system response

(Not a doctor) From listening to the "Faucis" of various countries (incuding the original): I believe that the vaccine is not a watered down virus, so technically you are not making yourself vulnerable/more sensitive to the virus. It is suppsed to 'teach' your body how to build the defence.

Only the Chinese virus is a 'watered down' version of the virus. All the others (including the Russian) is an RNA-type-thingie.

Re: Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

#280

Post by andrewon » Mon, Mar 15, 2021, 5:38 PM UTC

sradman wrote: post #206

fab1an wrote: post #133

Looks like this may be a bit more relevant than many of the snarky comments would suggest - the relevant German authority on this said that they have seen a unexpected increase in a specific type of blood clotting issue that usually is very rare: https://www.pei.de/DE/newsroom/hp-meldungen/2021/210315-voru...

> The EMA has said that as of March 10, a total of 30 cases of blood clotting had been reported among close to 5 million people vaccinated with the AstraZeneca shot in the European Economic Area, which links 30 European countries. "The decision today is purely precautionary..." given this level of signal. We don't have details on the age groups involved and the normal rates expected but I can hazard a Fermi Estimate…

Several considerations here:

1. If holding off AstraZeneca vaccine does not affect vaccination rate during the investigation period, it is a prudent thing to do.

2. If vaccine rate is expected to drop, number of expected increase in death per day due to covid vs blood clog should be compared, if we were to minimize short term death.

3. More concerning is unknown effect that could take a long time to materialize. This is a tough call to make since any effect is only theoretical at this point.