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How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

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Re: How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

#271

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

wwww4all wrote: post #245
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When you demonstrate high performance and solution delivery, age becomes less of an issue. Never even comes up. Like I said, I've been doing this for a loooooong time. I have a massive open-source portfolio[0]. Much of it is days (or minutes) old. I've been surfing the leading edge for my whole career. No one ever even looks at it. I've learned that if they give me a binary tree test, I might as well just end the p…

My plan to minimize ageism is straight forward. Continuous improvement in latest tech stack. Demonstrate delivering solutions. Regularly interview with recruiters for positions at or above my level. When the full time offers slows down, I’ll take on vendor and contract positions. When the contract positions slow down, I’ll start my own vendor or consulting company. I’ll hire younger sales and product people to be the…

> Good luck to you.

Not necessary. I'm living the dream, right now. I worked for many years, to get to where I am now.

The fact that I'm not valued, simply as a function of my age (I'm 58, BTW), is annoying; a bit hurtful, but not crippling, at all.

As a matter of fact (not theory -fact), I'm more productive that I've ever been in my life, I learn more quickly, and more holistically, than I ever have, I use tools more effectively than I ever have, and I am enjoying what I do, more than I ever have.

There's the most positive thing that ol' Freddy once said: "That which does not kill me, makes me stronger."

I had to go through the rejection and humiliation to reinforce and realize my own sense of confidence and self-reliance.

I can tell you that the folks I'm working with right now, are basically pinching themselves.

Re: How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

#272

Post by t-writescode »

KDJohnBrown wrote: post #70

Cash rules everything around me. After a few decades of relying on coding to feed my family, I miss the way it felt magical, writing in Basic on a ti 99/4a. I thought I was going to tell computers to do wonderous things. In reality most of us are telling them to serve ads or sell crap to people. Most of the rest of us are telling them to serve data to companies doing the above. It’s just business now, nothing more.

So what are you going to do about it?

Re: How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

#273

Post by vlunkr »

dmingod666 wrote: post #150
frereubu wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. Every friend I talk to, from central bankers to dramaturgs, has regrets about the career they chose. It generally breaks down into where they are on the spectrum from (a) they wish their job was more creative to (b) they wish they had more money to live comfortably. I know almost no-one who is content that they've found a happy medium, and the few that do have done so through blind luck.

An alternate perspective to this is. The great line of thought, that you are meant to 'follow your passion' and discover your true calling. There is a job mean for you and you just need to find it. I disagree with this and feel this thinking makes peoples lives miserable thinking they're somehow wasting their lives and makes people take plunges in life that they later regret. I feel there is space for an attitude tha…

If you haven't watched Soul yet this is essentially the plot.

Re: How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

#274

Post by zelphirkalt »

logbiscuitswave wrote: post #248
picks_at_nits wrote: post #33

I am deeply, deeply romantic about programming. I consider it an act of self-actualization. But answering the question literally, I am not representative of everyone in the industry, and that's a good thing. It's easy to feel romantic about your vocation when you have a number of reasonable options for achieving modest financial security, and you thus had the privilege of choosing the one that most closely matched yo…

I once had someone vehemently complain to me about certain style rules in place in a code base saying, “only machines will ever read it, who cares how it looks as long as it works?” As someone who’s deeply passionate about software development it certainly made me look at this person in a different light.

Always remember: The next person to maintain it could be you.

Often that kind of view (who cares how it looks) is held by people, who leave and leave a mess for others to maintain.

insert Sussman quote about programs being written for others to read first and only last for computers to run here

Re: How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

#275

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

Footkerchief wrote: post #244
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, frontend is my strength. I've written (and shipped) dozens of apps. I'm quite good at "closing" the app development process. I've been shipping (as opposed to just "coding") applications for over thirty years. The backend was just a more challenging project. I won't go into all the reasons that I wrote it, but it works a charm. A dedicated backend engineer could probably do better (actually a dedicated back…

> I do it for fun, and I don't really need the work Have you considered that this might cause you to be perceived as a hobbyist?

> Have you considered that this might cause you to be perceived as a hobbyist?

I don't care. If anyone perceives me as such, then they are just another person that didn't bother to click on the link, and find out more about me. I'm not particularly interested in working with folks like that. I don't hide a thing. Maybe the [0] thing is confusing, so I'll do it inline, this time: https://stackoverflow.com/story/chrismarshall

It's all out there, for anyone that wants to find out. I guess that it's a sign of the times, that no one is willing to do that. I was a manager for a couple of decades, and would have killed for that kind of information. I can't even image hiring an employee, based only on a short schoolboy test.

Of course, that cuts both ways. People may look at my code and articles, and decide they don’t want to work with me, but at least they are making an informed decision.

Re: How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

#276

Post by hackerfromthefu »

notriddle wrote: post #118
Grimm1 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true but that is to offset the really negative aspects. How many places never let dev's actually design systems that stand up to scrutiny because the execs don't care if BS is pumped out because as long as the business floats then it doesn't matter. Then the code base becomes a mass of spaghetti that at this point the revolving door of devs have to both figure out and keep alive in ever increasingly stressful…

The other problem is that there's factors in a company other than, strictly, its engineering culture. I could get a good job, in a good engineering culture, working in adtech, but as long as I have a choice I'd rather not. The place I work instead can charitably be described as "a victim of regulatory capture," but at least I'm working in a business that I believe has a legitimate reason to exist.

+1

Re: How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

#277

Post by harel »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #27
rufus_foreman wrote: post #4

"After a while, more and more, you’ll find yourself in moments of awe, stunned by the size and fragility of it all; the mountains of work and talent and creativity and foresight and intelligence and luck that went into it. And you’ll reach for the word “magic” because you won’t know how else to describe it and then you lean back and smile, wondering how someone could not." I guess I wish I felt like that about progra…

The longer I am in this profession (and it's been over 20 years) the less I see my peers as "dicks and idiots" but more as victims of the same broken game. I work with very smart people, to be honest. It's the technology and the employers and the culture of development that's the problem. Retiring sounds good right about now.

I'm 25 years in, give or take, and I still find myself amazed people want to pay me money to do this. I do find it romantic. The whole thing.

Re: How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

#278

Post by arcticbull »

rufus_foreman wrote: post #4

"After a while, more and more, you’ll find yourself in moments of awe, stunned by the size and fragility of it all; the mountains of work and talent and creativity and foresight and intelligence and luck that went into it. And you’ll reach for the word “magic” because you won’t know how else to describe it and then you lean back and smile, wondering how someone could not." I guess I wish I felt like that about progra…

That’s my favorite essay of all time, and an incredibly accurate.

Re: How can you not be romantic about programming? (2020)

#280

Post by yowlingcat »

GuB-42 wrote: post #126
3princip wrote: post #65

I've found being too attached to code is a recipe for frustration in the workplace. You code something elegant, simple, dare I say beautiful and inevitably it will be butchered by new product requirements, business needs, that quick hack to satisfy a client or more generally uncaring colleagues who are looking to get their job done as quickly as possible. Perhaps romantic aspects could only be achieved when there are…

If your code gets butchered it is not that great. That's something I am slowly learning, and by slowly I mean in the scale of decades. I've seen some of my old code I wrote in the workplace ten years ago, going through the hands of many developers of various skill levels and with different ideas, and then getting back to me. Needless to say, it is pretty ugly. Analyzing that, I found the real good parts mostly untouc…

Very well worded. One thing I'll add -- some of the best code I've written has been the shortest and most plain, simple and obvious. Perhaps for the reasons you stated -- it makes it more likely to come through untouched over time.
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