Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ercot nearly at capacity for Texas power grid

ercot.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–280 of 597 posts

Re: Ercot nearly at capacity for Texas power grid

#271

Post by Scoundreller »

sn9 wrote: post #258
adrianmonk wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is it's the coldest night in about 30 years. Here in Austin, it's just past midnight, and it's already down to 13°F (-10.5°C). It hasn't been that cold here since December 23, 1989. Also, a lot of Texas homes have electric heat (except in the northern part of the state). Winters are relatively short and mild. Many homes use electric heat pumps as the heating source. They're energy-efficient and easy to in…

And with windchill, it's well below 0°F. I've lived in Texas all my life and can't remember the last time that happened.

> And with windchill, it's well below 0°F.

You won't feel the windchill inside, but it will amplify the impact of draughty buildings/poor insulation.

Re: Ercot nearly at capacity for Texas power grid

#272

Post by joosters »

londons_explore wrote: post #263
Scoundreller wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People's use of energy is relatively insensitive to price, or they don't know the price, or few people care about the price when it comes time to need it Basically this. Few individuals pay the actual price of electricity. At best, they'll pay time-of-day rates that might change schedules 2x/year. Otherwise, everyone pays the average cost, and couldn't care less if noon-time electricity costs 10x on Monday vs. last…

The real fix here is to have more residential customers either knowing the minute by minute pricing, or paying extra for the privilege of an "unlimited plan" or something. That could be achieved for example by instead of setting your space heater to "low heat", "Mid heat" or "high heat", you could just hit the "$1/hour of heat", "$2/hour of heat", or "$3/hour of heat" settings. The heater itself can look at the minut…

The real fix here is to have more residential customers either knowing the minute by minute pricing

This is insane. Do you really believe that individuals are going to be monitoring the energy prices like a rabid day-trader, making 'rational' decisions between "oh good, power is cheap now" and "power is expensive, I guess I'll just freeze"?

Re: Ercot nearly at capacity for Texas power grid

#273

Post by enraged_camel »

sn9 wrote: post #258
adrianmonk wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is it's the coldest night in about 30 years. Here in Austin, it's just past midnight, and it's already down to 13°F (-10.5°C). It hasn't been that cold here since December 23, 1989. Also, a lot of Texas homes have electric heat (except in the northern part of the state). Winters are relatively short and mild. Many homes use electric heat pumps as the heating source. They're energy-efficient and easy to in…

And with windchill, it's well below 0°F. I've lived in Texas all my life and can't remember the last time that happened.

It has been snowing like crazy’s I just lost power too. Time for bed. :)

Re: Ercot nearly at capacity for Texas power grid

#274

Post by fogihujy »

unethical_ban wrote: post #155
eckza wrote: post #81

It's curious that the current tide of public opinion reckons that we're all going to be in EVs in 10-15 years, when the grid nearly collapses under the weight of everybody plugging in a heater and turning on Netflix at the same time.

What's your point? That EV conversion shouldn't be a goal? That because of a freak, instant spike in demand in 2020 means grids and production can't be more robust in 2035? A TV pulls what, 50-100 watts? A space heater pulls 1500W on high. Now think about many people who, for better or worse, are running multiple space heaters in their house. Now imagine millions of households doing that, on two days' notice.

Not the grandparent, but this is an actual concern. As you say, there is nothing preventing us from aiming for large-scale EV conversion while simultaneously improving the grid.

The problem is that many seem to believe the second part will happen automatically, whereas in reality, it'll require large investments in renewing and improving current infrastructure.

As a comparison, I live in the Finnish countryside. Cold like the one experienced in Texas is pretty normal here, but the grid situation is similar to what the grandparent suggests; a large-scale EV rollout would simply not be possible during wintertime as the grid's already maxed out due to electric heating. And this is when most people burn wood or wood pellets in order to keep their electricity bills low.

This will be easier to remedy in urban areas, but unless we start upgrading the infrastructure soon, there's simply no way we'll be using EV's to the extent we want to in 15 years.

Re: Ercot nearly at capacity for Texas power grid

#275

Post by enraged_camel »

atian wrote: post #241
Scoundreller wrote: post #228

Now at level 3: Situation Critical: "has declared an EEA 3. Energy conservation is critical. Rotating outages are underway to reduce demand on the electric system. We urge Texans to put safety first during this time. Traffic lights and other infrastructure may be temporarily without power. 01:25:40 150221" https://twitter.com/ERCOT_ISO "Rotating outages primarily affect residential neighborhoods and small businesses…

I’m in North Texas (Oncor) and my place just got hit by the rolling blackout 3 minutes ago (1:44am). See http://www.ercot.com/content/cdr/main/currentDayForecastSyst... for dramatic shedding of load. Edit 1:54am - First blackout lasted exactly 10 minutes. They got this down to a tee. Edit 2:37am CT - Second blackout started. Edit 3:00am - Second blackout ended. Edit 3:17am - Third blackout started.

I lost power at 2 am. It’s 2:48 am and still no power...

Re: Ercot nearly at capacity for Texas power grid

#276

Post by fuzzfactor »

namibj wrote: post #261
noodlenotes wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Texas has the equipment, but it's all frozen due to an extreme weather event. 1. The extreme cold is driving up demand to heat homes which is usually done in part by natural gas but 2. The cold has frozen natural gas pipes and wells, driving up the cost of gas 33x. 3. People are trying to heat their homes with electricity but 4. Wind turbines are frozen, limiting capacity, AND those sky high gas prices are limiting w…

How do you manage to freeze natural gas pipelines? It isn't even liquid at the near-surface air low-temperature record (-89.2 C/-128.6 F).

Crude natural gas is usually saturated with water downhole at warm temperatures and high pressures, some of which condenses as it is produced at the surface.

At many points in a pipeline further water removal can be essential too.

Even when not liquefied like LPG, when passing through a restriction valve or orifice, there is still additional cooling due to the product acting a bit like a refigerant.

The water content may be small but the quantity of cold gas passing through a narrow point which is well below 0C eventually can build up kilos of ice and block the flow until the ambient temperature rises enough to open it back up.

Re: Ercot nearly at capacity for Texas power grid

#277

Post by namibj »

eigenvector wrote: post #214
cameronh90 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Preface: I know very little about power grids, but had a couple thoughts. In the UK, there is a system of load shedding that is tied to the grid frequency. My understanding is that some industrial users agree terms where they get cheaper rates but if the demand outstrips supply, they are first to be cut. This load shedding is implemented by components that monitor the grid frequency, and if it drops below a fixed val…

The technical term for what you're describing is under-frequency load shedding (UFLS) and it is part of most modern power systems around the world, including all of the North American grids. It is an important safeguard against system collapse, however, the goal of system operators is to avoid reaching this stage. In fact, resolving contingency events without interruption of "firm load" (that is, loads that have not…

In the central european grid, there is actually a market where companies can offer frequency stabilization service to the grid, which exists in both directions. It doesn't matter if the combat a lack of power in the grid with shedding loads or spinning up another generator.

This exists on a few different timescales, and the faster-responding contracts trigger at higher frequency deviations.

Primary operating reserve triggers at +-200 mHz and needs to be fully available within 30 s and for up to 15 min, secondary operating reserve has to take over (and be fully available within 5 min), and the tertiary operating reserve has to be fully available within 15 min.

The entso-e map: https://www.entsoe.eu/data/map/

Re: Ercot nearly at capacity for Texas power grid

#278

Post by dmurray »

namibj wrote: post #261
noodlenotes wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Texas has the equipment, but it's all frozen due to an extreme weather event. 1. The extreme cold is driving up demand to heat homes which is usually done in part by natural gas but 2. The cold has frozen natural gas pipes and wells, driving up the cost of gas 33x. 3. People are trying to heat their homes with electricity but 4. Wind turbines are frozen, limiting capacity, AND those sky high gas prices are limiting w…

How do you manage to freeze natural gas pipelines? It isn't even liquid at the near-surface air low-temperature record (-89.2 C/-128.6 F).

Methane can't realistically freeze in the pipes, but unrefined natural gas has plenty of impurities which can. Note they're talking about "pipelines and wells" freezing in a gas production context, not residential gas mains.

Re: Ercot nearly at capacity for Texas power grid

#279

Post by jabl »

p_l wrote: post #265
foepys wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like someone or some DDoS detection blocked either everything or all foreign IPs.

Looks like the "GDPR doesn't allow to spy on users, let's block anyone who could be covered by it" kind of block.

I've been able to view the ERCOT site before, so probably not.

At this point it makes sense for them to prioritize getting information out to residents rather than us foreigners with an idle interest. :)

Re: Ercot nearly at capacity for Texas power grid

#280

Post by londons_explore »

joosters wrote: post #272
londons_explore wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real fix here is to have more residential customers either knowing the minute by minute pricing, or paying extra for the privilege of an "unlimited plan" or something. That could be achieved for example by instead of setting your space heater to "low heat", "Mid heat" or "high heat", you could just hit the "$1/hour of heat", "$2/hour of heat", or "$3/hour of heat" settings. The heater itself can look at the minut…

The real fix here is to have more residential customers either knowing the minute by minute pricing This is insane. Do you really believe that individuals are going to be monitoring the energy prices like a rabid day-trader, making 'rational' decisions between "oh good, power is cheap now" and "power is expensive, I guess I'll just freeze"?

People make similar choices all the time...

Eg. "Oh, there's a queue at the gas station today. I'll drive on and get gas tomorrow instead."

Thats them observing that the cost (to their time) of getting gas is high today, and that they can purchase later for a lower time cost.

Post reply on HN